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GNAV v's Kicker

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tgruitt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: GNAV v's Kicker
    Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by craiggo

GRF,

The temple vang is basically a prodder extending out of the back of the
foredeck. The kicker is then attached in a vertical plane between the
prodder and the boom. In theory this only increases leech tension without
all the lower mast bending. The picture shown by Jack shows the prodder
on the mast stump.

However there are drawbacks with the temple vang. Sometimes it is
desirable to induce bend in the lower mast. For this reason the Scorpions
experimented with having both a conventional kicker and a temple vang.

I have to say though I reckon there is more chance of snagging yourself
on the prodder than there is of getting caught by a standard kicker.

Alternatively GRF, you could fit your boat with a full width cockpit
traveller and then you'd only need the kicker for downwind work. Sheet
the main on hard upwind to control leech tension and play the traveller!


Just to correct you, that's the boom the temple vang is on in that picture
not the mast. Its on the mast end and points downwards. It is then pulled
in towards the front bulkhead with a pully system, they are great for
crews, and pretty powerful too, just need to make sure they are very very
strong!
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 3:54pm
Woah steady..

You've got the irish man in the dustbin, slow down on the telling him to pee
in the corner..


Full width cockpit traveller? Pickies? What boat would have one of those.
What exactly travels on it, all my ropey bits hang off the back of the boom.

I'm sort of visualising the temple vang so does the bit stick in front og the
mast would it not intefere with my self tacking jib?
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tgruitt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 4:01pm
If someone can tell me how to put a picture here on a mac, I have a great pic
which explains all!

Edited by tgruitt
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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 4:24pm
http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 4:25pm
You need to get the shot uploaded onto another site then post a link. In
that
image box, I dont expect this programme will upload stuff from a mac
desktop.

If it's a long link, see the little arrow in the bottom right corner of the box
you type in drag that to the right so there is no line break in the image
formula.

If that fails email it to me I'll bung it up for you.

This forumware isn't that Mac friendly but there's usually a work around.

Edit: Thanks Chewbacca I get it now...

Edited by G.R.F.
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aardvark_issues View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote aardvark_issues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 7:24pm
I've never had problems uploading pictures from a Mac...
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 7:42pm
Thanks for correcting me Tom, I assumed that the pic was the mast stump as it didnt look very long.

The arrangement I mentioned was however used in the Scorpion.


Regarding full width travellers, you only tend to see them on cats and in monohull singlehanders such as the OK, but if the boat is beamy enough it could work in a doublehander. In fact if my memory is correct didnt early 420s and 470s have a traveller ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by MikeBz

A conventional kicker produces a forward thrust at the gooseneck which is proportional to the amount of kicker tension (thus proportional to the leech tension) which induces bend (there may be strut(s) or lower(s) to counteract it).  The kicker pulls back at the heel of the mast with a similarly proportional force, but because it's at the heel it has no effect.   So put simply, more kicker equals more bend trying to be induced at the gooseneck.

A gnav swaps these 2 forces over - the forward thrust is induced further up the mast where the hardware meets the mast.   This is countered by the boom being thrust backwards with a similarly proportional force.  In this case the backward force on the boom (which presumably is bolted to the gooseneck in some way otherwise it would just fall off) will to some extent mitigate the forward force at the top of the lever.  In practice this 'push-me-pull-me' act some way up from the heel of the mast will be trying to induce an S-bend - imagine you've got a long whippy cane, both ends clamped, and then you get hold of it with both hands and pull with one hand whilst you push with the other.

I would have thought from the above that the gnav would induce less bend, albeit subject to positioning of struts/lowers/gooseneck/heel etc.  That's an intuitive guess rather than an engineering/mathematical proof - although it wouldn't take too much of an engineer to come up with the proof (or otherwise).

Agreed, Mike, up to the point where you say "the gnav would induce less bend".

With a conventional kicker you can use a ram or lower shrouds to effectively lock the gooseneck in position, so that the only effect of the kicker is to apply leach tension. With a gnav, sure you can lock the position of the attachment point of the gnav on the mast in a similar manner, but to prevent bend you also need a system to stop the gooseneck moving aft, inducing bend. Some sort of puller or second ram at gooseneck level would do it, but I've yet to see it, and do you really want two arrangements to manage?

On the 3000, the gnav brings big benefits in terms of crew space - especially welcome in light airs - but it comes second to a conventional kicker in terms of mast bend control, imho.

I'd actually already considered using the composite kicker-gnav system proposed by GRF, which could be rigged such as to remove the aft pull at the gooseneck and the attendant bend (effectively you'd be pulling the gnav slider from the heel of the mast instead of from the gooseneck). Use the combo in a blow when mast bend control is critical and remove the kicker in light airs when space is more important. But so far, it's seemed like to much faff - deficiencies in my sailing are far more significant than any minor gains achieved, but for top sailors maybe something to consider.

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 10:02pm
I'm not a top sailor by any stretch of the imagination, but I do know what i
want out of a sail in any given wind condition, and the only way I can see
that occurring, without having on the fly mast bend and rake control like
we have on racing sailboards, is to have both options.

Some times I might want tight leech fat belly and not worried about a
little steeper entry and other times I might want the sail flattened, fine
entry tight low end, twist up top, it just makes me feel better if the sail
looks right.

I have noticed this mast ram thing on old five ohs and wondered if that
were sited directly in opposition to the Gnav, but then I'd be worried
about crushing the mast with opposing forces.

There's a lot of food for thought here and it's encouraging to read others
may be having 2nd GNAV thoughts also.

No joy with any pics of something with a cockpit wide traveller?

Interesting discussion though..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 10:12pm

mast rams appear on fireballs as well as 5ohs and the main reason is instead of chocks to stop the bottom of the mast moving a lot of the newer fireballs have gone for chocks again and a puller for down wind to stop the mast inverting.

as for GNAVs they bend masts lots, but so will kicker usually the difference with gnavs is that they are loading the mast above the goosneck at one single point theis is usually supported by lowers the the same point the gnav hits the mast as on the laser 4000, either way works but i prfer kicking as it provides entertainment when the crew goes full on into it during high speed wire to wire tacks

(Redoubt Sc)
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