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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hitting a Mark...
    Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 1:29pm
Not keen on the 'invisible' or 'out of play' idea.  If that were the case, rules 22.2 and 24.2 would have no work to do.


There's nothing in the rules to say that a boat taking a penalty turn cannot become entitled to mark-room:  it's just that if she does, she will not be exonerated for not keeping clear as required by rule 22.2, because rule 21 (Exoneration) does not include rule 22.2.


And any mark-room that she becomes entitled to is not limited to boats more than 3 boat lengths away.  Why should it be?


Edited by Brass - 28 Oct 20 at 1:30pm
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 6:20pm
Would it not be the case that whilst taking the penalty turn, you should not be in a position to manouvre into an instantaneous 'advantagous' situation over other boats in close proximity. That appears to go against the caveat in case 108 'well clear of other boats, and when no question of advantage arises'.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Would it not be the case that whilst taking the penalty turn, you should not be in a position to manouvre into an instantaneous 'advantagous' situation over other boats in close proximity. That appears to go against the caveat in case 108 'well clear of other boats, and when no question of advantage arises'.

Andy, 'in a position to manoeuvre into an instantaneous 'advantageous' situation':  you are shovelling words into the rules that aren't there.

Case 108 is primarily about ways a boat may manoeuvre in taking a penalty.  It does nothing to add to or interpret the words of rule 44.1(b)

If a boat ... despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage ... by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

Looking at the diagram above, my view is that:
  • Generally, because she remains required to keep clear by rule 22.2, with no prospect of exoneration if she breaks that rule, her entitlement to mark-room dissolves into no more than her entitlement under rule 14 not to get hit.
  • @4 Y becomes entitled to mark-room from boats approaching the finishing line on starboard tack (either hot or DDW),  Because Y is manoeuvring below and outside the finishing mark, it is highly unlikely that any other boat on the finishing line side of the finishing mark is going to get overlapped outside her. but she is already wholly past the finishing line.  Any starboard tacker who might be required to afford Y mark-room would already have finished and would suffer no disadvantage (give Y no advantage) by giving mark-room.
  • @8 Y 'instantaneously' completes her penalty turn and gains mark-room:  there's nothing wrong with that:  entitlements change all the time, sometimes they're 'buffered' (for example by rule 15 or rule 18.2(b)), sometimes they're not.
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 6:35am
Ah, I misinterpreted case 108, did not realize that 'advantage' was directly referring to rule 44.1(b).
I still have a problem with the notion that a boat can complete a penalty turn inside the zone and instantly gain entitlement to mark room. With no buffer, it gives them the right to barge in (not being subject to rule 15). Or am I overthinking this?
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 7:05am
Remove a large chunk of rules and simply allow the marks to be touched, as long as they have been passed on the correct side.
Robert
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 8:29am
Andy, 

As any law student will tell you, never rely on a headnote.

I'm not trying to kid you that this outcome was carefully considered and approved by the rule-makers:  I'd suggest that it is an unlikely and unusual situation that was never in contemplation.

Note that the 'unbuffered' flip-flop occurs @8 when Y passes head to wind (completes her penalty, ceases to be required to keep clear by rule 22.2, and simultaneously becomes required to keep clear by rule 13, so it's only going to affect a port tacker way deep of the layline coming in red hot.



Edited by Brass - 29 Oct 20 at 9:22am
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 10:36am
Originally posted by 423zero

Remove a large chunk of rules and simply allow the marks to be touched, as long as they have been passed on the correct side.

Windsurfers have done this for years (not that most of them paid any notice beforehand mind you Ouch) and it is a licence to barge in at speed.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:19am
Would be Exciting to see large cats doing that.
Robert
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:33am
Brass, In the scenario you have illustrated (downwind finish), indeed there is little chance of a conflict arising.
Take a different scenario when the finish is on a fetch/reach with a steady stream of boats... The penalty boat first tacks then gybes... Straight into the stream of boats, with a claim to mark room...
On a normal inside overlap at a mark, the zone provides the buffer. How would you propose a solution to the situation then?
Mine would be something like; Addendum case 108 or explanatory note (or whatever it takes) 'A boat taking a penalty turn within a mark zone forfeits any entitlement to mark room and cannot re-establish entitlement on completion of the penalty over other boats already in the zone'. How would you see that?
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 20 at 11:43am
Thanks for the reaching example.  I agree that it's much more problematical.


I think the problem will be solved in the 2021 rules, where a new last sentence is added to rule 18.1



Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when mark-room has been given.


Edited by Brass - 29 Oct 20 at 1:11pm
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