Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
![]() |
Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
![]() |
List classes of boat for sale |
Asymmetric technique |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <12 |
Author | ||
RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 10 Apr 19 at 3:10pm |
|
Mainsail twist? Look at the main and asy from behind, let the kicker off until the leach of the main is kind of 'sympathetic' to the leach of the kite. The two sails share the same air, so don't want to be figthing each other. Downwind angles? Forget the search for the magic list of downwind angles vs windspeeds. Instead, start by not steering a straight line. Head up until the boat accelerates, then when it has built some speed, try to bear off without losing too much speed. When you lose speed, head up and start again. In any waves (even tiny ones!) reach up the wave and bear off down it. Also bear off in any puffs. Even small ones.
|
||
![]() |
||
Wetabix ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 15 Feb 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 118 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Thanks for that, but I think I am doing all that. Today in about five knots of wind I got the SpeedPuck out and managed to find a groove between 4.6 and 5.8 knots, at the lower speed I was pointing at the mark, at the higher speed I would have to gybe and sail another leg which was perhaps 150 yds long. How do I know which is the best angle? I could have heated up to 8knots but would never have got down to the mark. This is such an arcane science that you would have thought millions of words would have been written on it, but they haven't. One thing I did notice was that with a very little more wind I could point a lot lower. I can't measure how much because the file is corrupt.
|
||
![]() |
||
RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Unfortunately the best way to learn what pays is One Design racing. But it's useful to consider cosines. 20 degrees off course, your vmg is 94% of your speed 30..... 87% 40 ....77% etc etc. So if you can do 8 knots instead of 5, you can afford to sail a big angle. Alas, that does not guarantee that a blow-along-boat won't get there first. Once you are in the business of gybing to get to the mark, it becomes important to pick the shifts and bends. |
||
![]() |
||
GM ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 11 Apr 19 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Hello,
Realistically with any sailing dinghy that is designed to sail with the apparent wind, which I believe the Weta is designed for due to the flat cut of the sails. Soaking DW like in a traditional boat such as a phantom will be incredibly slow due to the wetted area and having no ability to make the sails deep enough. Therefore, even the lightest wind you will have to sail to your apparent angle. To what angle is a dark science and very much depends on the breeze and the weigh up of sailing extra distance vs speed. Previously mentioned above - there should be some scientific formula but alas not one that is easy to compute on the water and during a race. I would recommend getting some tell tales on your spinnaker as it is almost more similar to a genoa. As with the aim of any apparent wind boat, it is the search for speed and greatest depth and playing this trade off. This usually involves going low in the gusts and painfully heading up in the lulls. Some cheats that can stop you from playing such large angle changes is to try and sail low for as long as possible and when you start to feel that you need to head up sheet on the main and this should prevent some of the angle change. Likewise to help you bear away and sail lower ease main, which gives you the opportunity to sheet it back on. Out of gybes will be painful but the key is to build speed as quickly as possible while also trying to get the wind attachment to the sails quickly. A large head up ensuring that the kite isn't too eased as will stall out and when the power comes on bear off and ease the kite. Otherwise, I think it is all about the feel and the ability to hunt those extra bits of pressure out at all costs!
Edited by GM - 15 Apr 19 at 10:18am |
||
![]() |
||
Wetabix ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 15 Feb 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 118 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Ahh yes, sines and cosines. In my day we had four figure log tables with which to work out the drift rate of a gyro which was in some mysterious way related to the sine of the latitude. I can't say it changed my life other than getting me a job as a pilot which has been an acceptable alternative to work for the last 55 years. I can still do headwind/crosswind calculations in my head. I also, more or less, understand the polar diagrams available on GPS Action Replay. From these it is apparent that the best Vmg is actually obtained during a gybe. Next time I have the Speedpuck out I shall just let all the sails out to the fullest extent at which they will fill, point the boat about 15 degrees off DDW which will produce an apparent wind about 30 degrees off DDW and relax with a sandwich and see what happens. With close on three times the sail area of my enemy in the Streaker, albeit not projected by a boom, I should do alright, should I not? Meanwhile other voices urge me to heat it up 'a bit' before bearing away 'but not too far'. There is a certain lack of precision here which would render the use of four figure cosine tables redundant, methinks. The equivalent chapter in a book on sailing a Laser downwind would tell me how far to let the boom out, when to sail by the lee, when to sail 'leech first' and exactly how much string to wind round my arm in preparation for the next pump. Frank Bethwaite of course refused to fit the Taser with an asymmetric spinnaker because it would have made the boat slower. He would, I am sure say that the easiest way to make the Weta go faster would be to remove the screacher and fit a boom. It would however be less fun. There are boats around which have small ineffective asymmetric spinnakers (eg the RS200 and the 'Laser' 2000) and they seem to do alright. But they don't have a PN of 960 so it sort of takes the pressure off...….!
|
||
![]() |
||
Guests ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Really? Are you sure that's not just momentum? Carrying speed dead downwind as you bear off? Surely not sustainable? Similar to the best instantaneous VMG upwind is often entering a tack... but analyse the whole tack and you'll see the VMG for that period is worse that going in a straight line.
With the boom right out and a bit of windward heel they can still soak pretty well and they gybe very nicely meaning you can leverage smaller gusts and shifts. So whilst I think they would be faster around a W/L with a symmetric they don't do too bad. But a downwind leg in sub 15 knots is tough on handicap... I can see why the Weta would struggle further though. Can you pole out the kite on the opposite side? |
||
![]() |
||
RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
You can find plenty of videos of Lasers racing, they will all have been coached in the magic numbers to sail by, yet some go consistently faster than others.... The point with cosines is simply to get a broad feel for the trade-off between heading and VMG. Being 15 degrees off course does not dilute your VMG much. I was watching a Weta last year, it seemed very fast on a broad reach? Almost up towards a beam reach? I get the feeling that is what it does well, what it is made for? It was breezy with some chop, and I was fairly impressed TBH, I felt the 400 would definitely not be carrying its kite that high across the bay. Unlike most asy boats, w/l racing was not high up the designer's wish list? If you want to race downwind with it, then maybe a fuller kite might be interesting? Could you borrow anything that would fit?
|
||
![]() |
||
Wetabix ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 15 Feb 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 118 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Ahh the sweet spot! Yes if you can persuade the RO to set a course which is a wide triangle with the apparent wind ten or fifteen degrees off close hauled on the reaches and the legs long enough to get the sails set, your bum in the corner of the tramp and if you are young and supple enough to get your feet in the straps and your backside out on the windward float, you will go past most things. You will lose ground dragging yourself back into the boat and furling the screacher but you will retain the memory for the rest of the season when every course seems to turn into a Vmg soak. And yes, the Weta does have a deeper, larger spinnaker but it has to be dropped on the windward leg which requires a second crew member in all normal circumstances. But there are plenty of people who sail two up who might carry both the large spinnaker and the slightly larger square top main. As to booming (or holding) the screacher in the goosewing position - I have tried it but it feels horribly slow. I haven't actually measured the Vmg in that configuration but it might be quite good. And that is really what this thread is all about - do you soak as low as you can at say, 3.5 knots, point up until the boat comes alive at about 6 knots or point up as far as she'll go at about 8 knots. Deploying the sine/cosine table you would be making money at 8knots if you were 120 degrees below the true wind. Oh for a wireless true wind indicator! |
||
![]() |
||
iGRF ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
Fit one of those Dangley pole things they have on Icons?
Edited by iGRF - 16 Apr 19 at 1:45pm |
||
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <12 |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |