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    Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 8:31am
Originally posted by Chris 249

If you don't have a discard in "amateur" racing, you'll probably have a lot more requests for redress. Many times it seems that when you're mired in mid pack and having a bad race, you get slowed down by people who don't know the rules. 

But you can't request redress just because some else broke a rule. It has to have caused significant damage to your boat or self. Also, if you are damaged in a collision where another boat broke a rule when you were down in the pack, the redress is unlikely to bump you back up to the top, it would just reinstate you where you were when the incident happened. So I wouldn't say there is any increased likelihood of people requesting redress. 

If damage has affected a boats race, then boats should be protesting for redress, I don't see discard changing that, unless it happens in the last race of the series you never know when you are going to pick up another bad result. 

May it increase more protests in situation not applicable to redress? I don't think so, most protests don't go through because there is no gain, or just a single point gain, for the protester. That wouldn't change. 

It might however improve rule observance as people would know one collision, or one lost protest would end their event. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 8:39am
Originally posted by bustinben

You'd therefore have every race as damage limitation because a bad score does you more damage than the improvement a good score does.  I think that the racing would get quite negative and you would choose to cover/limit exposure in every situation.
I think in amateur fleets this is the main argument against it. In pro fleets of more homogeneous standard it's very much a game of bringing your average up, where in large amateur fleets with low point scoring the game is already very much about improving your worst results, removing discards entirely may take this to the extreme. 
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 8:40am
Originally posted by JimC

In fact until fairly recently they did have discards in Formula One.

Not that recently Jim, not since the 80s (and pretty much none since the advent of the first concorde agreement).
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Posts: 170 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gbrspratt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 10:07am


So what about this at the Merlin rocket nationals? Should 1st place be able to discard a BFD? That would have him down to 6th? Who do you penalise? The guys who have sailed consistently all week or the guy who has won the most races but been up and down?
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Posts: 241 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 10:09am
if you want the full article its here: 
http://49er.org/blog/editorial-discard-races-should-be-dropped/

personally on a race open i would prefer no discards, the best sailors / most consistent will still win.
Currently i'm sailing a reggata with 4 races we have a score of 2, 3, 1 but we can be beaten on a winner takes all by a boat with a score of second place has 4,2,2 and third yacht currently in 4th has 1, 10, 3.....now who is the better team? the third place yacht has 5, 3, 5 so really they have little chance of winning with discard...
seems unfair to me that we have been consistent yet the last race of the series is a winner takes all because of discard?

Edited by fudheid - 24 Aug 18 at 10:11am
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 10:11am
Originally posted by Chris 249

If you don't have a discard in "amateur" racing, you'll probably have a lot more requests for redress. Many times it seems that when you're mired in mid pack and having a bad race, you get slowed down by people who don't know the rules. I

I love the fact that as an elite sailor you have just blamed the majority of racing sailors for not knowing the rules, and spoiling 'a real' sailors racing. Whether this is unintended 'cognitive bias' or not you may well have just stumbled on one of the big reasons dinghy sailing is dying.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 11:30am
Seems to me the wrong question is being asked.

It shouldn't be "what scoring system makes for the right winner" but "what scoring system makes the event most fun for the majority of competitors"

Looking at most large events it seems to me that if you have no discard then a substantial number of competitors will be effectively out of it rather early on. Not just out of contention for winning, but out of contention for getting a result that reflects their ability. I'm a believer these days that you should pay more attention to the bottom half of the fleet, not the top half, because that's where growth will come from.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 11:39am
Originally posted by gbrspratt



So what about this at the Merlin rocket nationals? Should 1st place be able to discard a BFD?


That would depend on their performance in the bar at night, if they weren't there every night till closing then absolutely not.
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by gbrspratt



So what about this at the Merlin rocket nationals? Should 1st place be able to discard a BFD? That would have him down to 6th? Who do you penalise? The guys who have sailed consistently all week or the guy who has won the most races but been up and down?

Neither are wrong, its just what ever rules you play the game by.  there are pros and cons to any format, some work better for professional events such as Olympics and others more for the amateur game.  Personally i would like to see clubs and classes be a smidge braver with event formats, say a classes travellers series where at least one event is formatted differently.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 1:46pm
Personally, I think that I could do quite will in a no discard environment ... I usually find my results in a steady grouping regardless of the weather.  I am pig headed enough to rarely retire, and I am an unadventurous starter, so don’t pick up many BFD’s.

But I think that one discard is enough for most Regatta or Championship series.  In the Solos there is a tendency to have two discards at quite an early stage in a 12 Race Nationals.   This is almost an invitation to push the line until you have at least one BFD on the scoresheet.

However another consideration is that with two or three back to back races at Championships these days, gear failure in the first race of the day could use up all of your discards.  A response to that you are responsible for the maintenance of your boat, which could be included in the marginal gains side of the equation.

As one of the race officers of a popular single class Regatta in the South West, I am not sure “no discards” would be that great ... it would encourage those who are tired from multiple capsizes to carry on beyond their abilities and it would be harsh of those being black flagged at the start due to pressure from the second rank.
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