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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Feva masts
    Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 11:18am
If they're club boats do they need to stay / be class legal? I don't know whether this is feasible or not but maybe replace the top, or the whole stick with a plastic / composite one?
Nick
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Would duralac really have worked where things are pop riveted? Even with anodising the slight movement will cause wear and corrosion will set in. 

I feel your pain with the unwanted expense, but, honestly, 10 years on or next to the sea, things are going to corrode. And the fact it's happening on picos and toppers suggests it's not really an RS oversight, but just typical wear and tear for this type of construction... choose another construction method / material and you'll get different but no less costly maintenance issues. 

It's a bit hyperbolic that just because the masts are gone that whole boat has 'limited lifespan'. There are still a few avenues to explore before going in heavy handed CC'ing RYA etc.

Maybe contact other clubs and see what a minimum order would have to be to make it worth RS's while. Just because they don't list them on the site, or the first person you speak to on the phone can't see them on the system, doesn't mean they can't be bought.

Or buy the whole masts and sell surplus parts on ebay / RS used parts facebook page... there's probably others in a similar situation to you, but with the lower masts. 



I agree, the masts on these boats are bought in parts from Selden. I would try approaching them directly if you are worried about the build quality of that part. It's not worth the effort for whoever answers the phone at RS to call up Selden and ask what they thing, it would probably open a whole can of worms that they don't want to deal with. Plus, from a business perspective, Selden are just about the worst company to deal with I can think of!

On the other hand, masts are masts, they've been built like that for years. Just because nobody gave yours a good rinse down after sailing or even at the end of the season doesn't mean that there is a problem with the design or build. Ironically I actually agree with you about the lifespan of these boats, but the masts are not the issue. The hull is the big problem, fittings pull out, water gets in, cracks appear. Not good for a club boat which is pretty hard to repair compared to a GRP or even wooden alternative.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 1:39pm
On the other hand, they are what? under £5k?
So the name of the game is to get mileage out of them and write them down over a ten year life.
A lot of the problem with the hulls is either abuse or UV. People think 'economy training boat' and think it doesn't deserve a cover. Maybe if you're using it intensively and wearing out before UV gets it, that'sa fair choice?
I don't think a Mirror mast is a whole lot cheaper.
Many masts used heavily on the sea are looking fairly sordid with corrosion at 10 years old.
As are Laser rudder stocks etc.
Some winter maintenance of oil or polish into the joins might help a bit? A bit of 3 in 1, GT85 or your favoured snake oil might be worth it.

Cynics would mention that a 10 year life cycle might be about right for lottery grant replacement?
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Sadly that is the way it is going though. I can't think of a modern class that has the traditional model of a designer designs it, gets a builder to build a couple of prototypes then allows anybody to build them subject to a licence fee. The H2 is probably the nearest thing to that but can anybody buy the plans and build them or can they only be built by Hadron Dinghies Ltd (and I understand that it may not be viable for an independent dinghy builder to make moulds etc. in view of the low volume production)?

The H2 was designed by Keith Callaghan / Hadron Dinghys who get White Formula to make the mouldings which are then put together and fitted out by Simon Hipkin to whatever spec the owner wants. 

A couple of examples of what I think has been great customer service - I took one of the blocks off and fitted it back incorrectly resulting in it failing at the Grafham GP, they just sent me a replacement through the post within a day without even asking. When a customer experienced issues getting back into the boat post-capsize they designed a neat righting line kit and offered it at cost by contacting owners asking if they wanted it retrofitted. I could give lots of examples like this, sure the overall cost to Hadron is pennies against a £9k boat but it just makes you feel so much more part of the class than simply a money bag to be pumped.
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Jon@RS Sailing View Drop Down
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Posts: 1 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon@RS Sailing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 3:21pm
Riv - In the early days of the RS Feva we did sell a top mast but due to the internal sleeve each top mast is slightly different. Many customers struggled to fit the sleeve and it ended up cause more problems then it solved.  

Please drop me an email at jon@rssailing.com and I will try to find a solution for you.
Jon Partridge
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Sadly that is the way it is going though. I can't think of a modern class that has the traditional model of a designer designs it, gets a builder to build a couple of prototypes then allows anybody to build them subject to a licence fee. The H2 is probably the nearest thing to that but can anybody buy the plans and build them or can they only be built by Hadron Dinghies Ltd (and I understand that it may not be viable for an independent dinghy builder to make moulds etc. in view of the low volume production)?

The H2 was designed by Keith Callaghan / Hadron Dinghys who get White Formula to make the mouldings which are then put together and fitted out by Simon Hipkin to whatever spec the owner wants. 

A couple of examples of what I think has been great customer service - I took one of the blocks off and fitted it back incorrectly resulting in it failing at the Grafham GP, they just sent me a replacement through the post within a day without even asking. When a customer experienced issues getting back into the boat post-capsize they designed a neat righting line kit and offered it at cost by contacting owners asking if they wanted it retrofitted. I could give lots of examples like this, sure the overall cost to Hadron is pennies against a £9k boat but it just makes you feel so much more part of the class than simply a money bag to be pumped.

I suspect the customer service at many small volume dinghy builders is also good, Cirrus and Hartley both spring to mind from personal experience. That's not to say large volume builders can't have excellent customer service too, I have had experience of that too.

My point was more that the traditional model of a designer designing a boat and then, more or less, throwing it out there for home or small builders to build and the CA to measure and administer the class (for the benefit of the sailors rather than the shareholders) is now only the province of older classes. Of course none of this is relevant if the class failed to reach critical mass as was the case with the Spice.....

The H2 looks a lovely boat and might well appear on my shortlist when the premium bonds pay out......
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
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Old Timer View Drop Down
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Posts: 370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by H2

Sometimes I see the mass boat makers like RS, Laser and others as having a similar model to the ink jet printer business. Sell lots of boxes cheaply and make the profit off the parts which people have to buy from you when they inevitably fail. Its a total ripoff that they are forcing you to buy new masts - sorry to hear that.

Quite an insightful post; never really thought about that.

For example I wonder if you look at Laser what the revenue from Boats is compared to parts (inc. sails) ??

Is this what all the WS anti-trust stuff is driving at?
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 4:36pm
Club is buying two new 16ft trainers, I feel like boycotting RS in protest.

[/QUOTE]

Consider the Hartley 15 (interest declared)
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 5:46pm
I can see RS have responded and I’m sure you’ll get a resolution.  In their defence why is it sooooo bad that they are making a profit on spares? Seen the price of road bike tyres or tennis balls recently?

Looking at the numbers involved and having an idea for how much it costs to source, stock, handle and package stuff like this, plus quality check and warranty costs it doesn’t look like robbery to me, certainly not in the same league as the £72 some joker recently tried to charge me for engine oil at a well known Bavarian car brand dealership. 
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 7:44pm
Dan,
Hartley 15 far superior to Laser Bahia, my club has a fleet of bahia's, we had a Hartley 15 and 12 on trial, the 15 totally dominated Bahia, faster on any point of sail, during handicap race it was easily keeping up with best Laser 1 sailors.
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