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crakkers View Drop Down
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Posts: 4 		Post Options Post Options   Quote crakkers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Leeward Mark
    Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 11:14am
Hello,

This has really provoked some thought.

This all came about a couple of weeks ago when several of us were wondering if it was too windy for us to race. I said that I might be tacking at some of the gybe marks to stay upright.

One wag then said, "so long as you are not inside of me"
"Why, surely if I am inside boat and I hail my intentions, it's up to you to keep clear?"

Needless to say the situation never happened, but I can see it will one day!

Keep posting!

Thanks,!
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by JimC

In this case it all follows as Brass says. Inside may luff up but not tack, and may not sail beyond the mark without gybing. So if A wants to go beyond the mark and tack round she needs to plan early, slow down and let B go ahead.

So, while my reasoning was incorrect my conclusion was not? Just asking as I would have gone with it if I was in that situation (except, assuming no other boats too close, I think I would actually, as the outside boat B, have sailed high enough to gybe and either try to cross astern of the inside boat A or at least be out of the way).

Edit :- the op doesn't say if he was inside boat or outside boat but, I think, if I didn't feel myself capable of making the gybe in the conditions I would certainly not expect an outside boat to give me enough room to wear round so I'd try to get to the outside out of everybody's way.

Not sure what 'conclusion' you are talking about.  If it was that, if you were B you should do absolutely anything you can to avoid a crash, I couldn't agree more.

I agree that separating and getting some freedom of action early would be a really good idea.

Maybe with spin boats, A is going to drop her kite early (which will give B a clue), which will let her go down-speed, and B will then be able to accelerate ahead and gybe across, but if it's a port rounding leeward mark and boats are originally coming in on starboard, that's going to put B on the wrong side of a port starboard cross.

If they're mono sail boats, then it's going to be really difficult to get speed differential, or even to guess what's going through A's mind.

I agree that it's a bit rich for A to expect B to spoil her race because of A's boat handling limitations, but OTOH, if A came up early, well before the mark to avoid rule 18.4, then she's doing nothing more than what the rules permit her to do.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 12:30pm
A couple of thoughts;

There is mention of luffing early, my experience of wearing round is that you don't want to head upwind anymore than you have to since this makes for a more extreme bear off to clear the mark and the capsized gybers ... which invariably leads to a death roll.

I am pretty sure that more often than not your wear round tack will take you out of three boatlengths it you want to stand any chance of surviving the bear off, so my guess is that the gybers will be entitled to and gain mark room, if they want it.

In practice in these situations your priority is survival and the rules come second (sorry Brass), last time this happened to me was on a reach to reach gybe in a shallow channel and the leader and myself exchanged glances ... and wore around, third place man gybed inside and won the race ... which he deserved for holding his nerve!
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

So, while my reasoning was incorrect my conclusion was not?

Not sure what 'conclusion' you are talking about.

That the inside boat doesn't have the right to claim mark room then proceed to wear round when the 'proper course' is to gybe. If they rely on being leeward boat they can luff but not tack so can't wear round that way either.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 4:06pm
I would say they would need to luff before the zone (if they were allowed to do so, depending on how the overlap was established).

Or make their intentions known early to allow the outside boat to either give them space to do so and duck behind of they slow down, let the outside boat go. To get to the mark and want room to tack when it would be a gybe mark because you don't think you can make it is a bit off.

At the end of the day avoiding contact is paramount, give the room and protest later.
Paul
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 17 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Originally posted by Brass


Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

So, while my reasoning was incorrect my conclusion was not?


Not sure what 'conclusion' you are talking about.
That the inside boat doesn't have the right to claim mark room then proceed to wear round when the 'proper course' is to gybe. If they rely on being leeward boat they can luff but not tack so can't wear round that way either.


There is no meaning to the term 'claim mark room or room'. A boat is either entitled to room or she is not.

Let's look at two clear cut examples.

First conditions moderate, perfectly possible for a competent but not expert crew to gybe. Once the first boat has reached the zone rule 18.4 will require the inside right of way boat to gybe to sail her proper course. If she attempts to luff and tack she breaks rule 18.4 at least. If the inside boat wants to luff and tack she needs to do it before the zone.

Second, heavy conditions, where it would not be safe and seamanlike for a boat with competent but not expert crew to gybe. No boat needs to gybe.Rule 18.4 will not apply, and as the inside boat luffs, it's going to be rules 11 and 16, then after the tack rule 18 again.

In these conditions you would expect boats to be keeping plenty of separation so each tacking should not be a problem.

Somewhere in the middle is the case where the inside boat judges (and a protest committee would agree) that it is not safe and seamanlike to gybe (maybe characteristics of the boat) but the outside boat can, and wants to gybe.

Here's the rub. The inside boat can avoid problems by luffing before the zone but once rule 18 applies, she might have problems with 18.4, or else a protest committee might conclude that it did not apply.

Edited by Brass - 22 Feb 17 at 7:50am
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