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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY Inland vs Sea
    Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 7:36am
But it doesn't actually. The point was that it is already in the hands of clubs as is, it's just that I suspect that a lot of the smaller clubs probably don't bother to read the instructions .

I know what you mean though in that perhaps if the rya wrote it down people might actually take notice. But then what about wind indexed values. A contender would benefit from that more than the inland / sea example you have given. Too complicated to empower though compared to the coastal values.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 8:22am
Use the PYS website, it gives recommended numbers for your club based on your results along with a confidence factor.

For the RYA/PYAG to do this themselves and produce umpteen specific lists for each water type simply is not feasable. There may be enough data to split inland vs sea (given that one of the biggest complainers about there system is at a sea club where they don't even submit results). 

Why not use the system as it is designed to be used? We have found that, on the whole, the RYA PYs are working pretty well now but we are always open to tweaking the numbers should that be required.

In my mind and going by the level of sailor ability in the boats, there is 1 class at my local club that could do with being a fair bit quicker....
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 8:52am
Trouble is, for some classes, the RYA barely gets enough results in total to set a fair handicap - how is a club with 1 boat racing supposed to decide what is fair? You soon get into personal handicapping. It can work on a macro scale - ie, when a handicap is so far out all you are doing is setting a closer ball park figure, but useless for any sort of tuning within 10 or 20 points.

Jim is right that it is the boundaries that are the problem, but that still leaves a lot of places where the information would be useful. "All" you need (I say "all", I have no idea whether the computer can spit it put) is to have 3 handicaps - the current ones, the sea ones and the inland ones. The clubs on the boundaries are then able to choose what they consider suits their water best - it might be they decide the balance of sea and inland is pretty even, so they carry on using the base set.

It is surely more straight forward than expecting dozens of clubs to contact each other and compare results, which simply isn't going to happen.
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 9:15am
There are  already prototype versions of PYS that will calculate handicaps by water type.  There are also functions that will allow similar clubs to be grouped together and create handicaps specific to that group.  Taking this process further you can also output handicaps by various filters such as sail number range within a class down to personal handicaps.

The level of data drill down now available could deliver some very exciting possibilities,  but there are challenges,  some highlighted in this thread.  
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 9:18am
It's no simple task- take for example Parkstone and Hayling- both 'sea' venues and if you're lucky to have a championship there you'll probably find you're really sailing out at sea.  But if you think that is where they do a lot of their club racing you are wrong- it's often inside the harbour, with flukey winds and local tidal knowledge coming in to play.  Other than that tide, what is so different between that, and say and upriver club like RHYC, or even a large pond like Rutland?
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Posts: 71 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fish n ships Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

There are also functions that will allow similar clubs to be grouped together and create handicaps specific to that group.

I know this was mentioned when the PYS system was first introduced, I've not heard anything about this since.  Has there been any movement in the background for this?  I know that there were quite a few local clubs sailing on very similar water types (small inland lakes) who were happy to share data but nothing has since been mentioned. 
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 9:55am
It wouldn't surely be that difficult to issue yardstick ratings by 'group' and the club decides to which group it belongs.

Nor would it be beyond the wit of man to set mathematically calculated handicaps by groups.

The question I would have thought should be wether another system is introduced in parallel along the SCHRS lines and all the experimentation carried out in that or you run the risk of another cock up similar to what we have at present.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 10:17am
Cats have a far closer types of hull to each other than dinghies. so SCHRS has fewer variables to ponder - and even there, I'm sure the rule makers have many, many things to think about.

I suppose it might work for types of dinghy - so instead of trying to race an EPS against a Merlin and get a fair result, you only race against other una rigged hiking singlehanders, but unless you band it, you still need to take in Toppers at one end (or Oppies?!) and the 300 at the other.

The PY system works better this way too, usually.

OK, now someone justs need to put together a rating system that isn't blown apart by the 1st boat designed for it... over to you, GRF.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 11:12am
Don't forget that there are some courses that benefit one class against another, there are classes that do very well beat and running, National 12s for instance.  Whereas there are some that do well if there are marginal tight planing reaches, Lasers.  Or broad planing reaches ... and Assymetric.  

Then there are classes that do well when it is light, National 12's, Enterprises or others that do well when it is very windy 420's or Fireballs.

My point is that there is no way that PY racing can ever be considered to be serious.  Over a series of weekends things should even out, but for one off events less so, and I would suggest that if you own a boat that will excel in based on the Wind Forecast, you will turn up, otherwise not.  

IMO PY Racing can be improved by having Slow, Medium and Fast handicap bands, which can separate different boat types, so that generally the racing separates out the assymetrics, symetrics and one sail singlehanders.  Also allows adjustment of race lengths to suit the speed of the boat.

Or you accept that the PY racing is a bit of fun for people who have chosen to buy into the local one-design fleet.

As you may tell, I loathe handicap racing, not because of the vaguaries of PY, but because I don't enjoy racing against boats that can roll me off the line, or who I have to give way to as they try to set their assymetrics.
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 11:20am
The suggestion that clubs can already adjust handicaps is great.  But many do not  for all sorts of reasons.  These can include a basic lack of understanding or as likely inertia or 'political' reasons.  It does not really matter in the end.

If it is not being done widely then perhaps, just maybe, the lead should come from the centre.  Implying your 'stake-holders' are to blame, lazy, biased or simply malcontents out to throw a few rocks around ignores the rather hefty elephant roaming around.  The unreformed system itself has simply reached its 'sell by date'  ...   Handicap racing has grown in importance, people take it more seriously than in days of old.  

The bottom line is that it is being challenged now - today.  The GL approach is not just about 'Great Lakes' that is simply a name.  It is growing, people seem more than happy to race under it and not just on 'Great Lakes' ... it might not be ideal or a complete answer but it is a very obvious symptom that many see the 'raw' PN approach as at least partially inadaquate.  It gives heavy weighting to the results of the Sailjuice series and applies a correction to the generic PN - this weighting goes some of the way to offset the institutional, in-built, limitations of the raw PN sample structure etc etc.

If there is to be progress I would, with the greatest respect, suggest that those behind the traditonal PN system do the following ..... By all means please please lead proper considered reform, or work with or follow those who are actively reforming things 'outside' already  .... or for heavens sake simply get out the way and stop defending the status quo.   The 'good old days' were not that great anyway and they are not going to be revisited anytime soon. 

Nobody expects miracles and we know reform cannot happen overnight but things are already too far out of the bag.  Lead .... or follow I guess.

Mike L.
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