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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 1:29pm
Yes, sailing involves communication, even if the rules don't.
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The Moo View Drop Down
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Posts: 809 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Moo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 2:03pm
So to be absolutely clear......

An inside overlap is gained and at that point there is sufficient room to pass through. Both boats maintain their same course but it takes the overtaking boat at least 30 lengths to get by and at 15 lengths or so she discovers she hasn't actually got enough to get through. Is she therefore entitled to a little more?
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 2:12pm
Yes - the outside boat must provide it once the overlap has been validly obtained. That was my point above when I asked how does the outside boat know when a little more is required?  Smile

I think we all agree that a discussion can be helpful there, even if it's not in the rules.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 2:16pm
So, even if the inside, non overlapped boat can see that in 3 boat lengths there is a bit of bank sticking out, they can put their nose in, so long as they are OK for the next boat length.

I have to say, that was always my understanding (and so gap closing very important before an overlap is gained) but writing it down does make it sound a little reckless!
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by Brass

This quote from Trevor Lewis The Racing Rules Explained (2009) is, at least, interesting



So I guess that this also applies to my "rudder half up" suggestion ... in wild conditions or in a heavy boat this might not be considered to be seamanlike (albiet subjective since it depends on the skill set of the sailor), but in lighter winds this would be ok ... sounds like this could turn into a game of chicken!
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 3:36pm
If sailing with the rudder up anyway, for weed or the like (not allowed in some classes, I should add) then there wouldn't be a problem. Now, being on the ball and skilled enough to lift the rudder while sailing a few feet from the shore on one side while catching up with a boat on the other, without slowing down (or no overlap) or veering off course (crunch) would seem to take a fair amount of skill? Certainly not something I've ever tried, even in my many years of river sailing.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 4:21pm
Leaving the rudder downhaul uncleated in case you run aground does not require great skill, but does take some of the risk out of going for the inside position, even if it does not trip up.  I do accept your point that in some classes you may be "out of class" when the rudder pops up, but this may be considered acceptable as a consequence of running aground!

I should add that this would be a foolish idea in a Salcombe Yawl when the boat becomes very dificult to steer with the rudder up, less of a problem in a Solo which you can pretty much steer straight using windward heel.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 4:37pm
I guess that is different again. If the rudder pops up because you have hit bottom (sensible to uncleat and not rip the transom off just in case) then it really would suggest you didn't have the depth, and so have no right to be there. Stopping and allowing the other boat to clear before moving into deeper water and putting the rudder down again would appear to be the option there.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

 
So I guess that this also applies to my "rudder half up" suggestion ... in wild conditions or in a heavy boat this might not be considered to be seamanlike (albiet subjective since it depends on the skill set of the sailor), but in lighter winds this would be ok ... sounds like this could turn into a game of chicken!

The 'seamanlike way' test in the definition of room is NOT subjective.

It is that which is decided by a 'jury of your peers', the protest committee, to be the seamanlike handling of a hypothetical boat of the same characteristics as your own, in the existing conditions, that can reasonably be expected from a competent, but not expert, crew of the appropriate number for the boat (Case 103).

I don't think it can be described as a 'game of chicken':  there is no risk on the outside boat:  if it's close, the risk is on the inside boat.

Originally posted by Rupert

Now, being on the ball and skilled enough to lift the rudder while sailing a few feet from the shore on one side while catching up with a boat on the other, without slowing down (or no overlap) or veering off course (crunch) would seem to take a fair amount of skill? Certainly not something I've ever tried, even in my many years of river sailing.

Nice work if you can do it, but once you've got in there pond-skater-wise, you can't jam your foils down and demand that the outside boat goes out and gives you more room:  what was seamanlike to establish your entitlement to room has to continue to be seamanlike in taking the room to which you are entitled.
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