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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: serious damage
    Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 3:24pm
This does seem like one of those areas when you can look at something and say "Serious damage", but it is much harder to define it without resorting to examples.

I've been enjoying this thread - I've been confused at times, and disagreed at others, but it seems the same applies to our judges, too, so I don't feel too stupid!
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 2:34pm
The starting point was a question:

When is damage so serious that a boat cannot take a 2 turn penalty on the water and should retire?

This question arose because I have been involved in discussions, including in the course of protest hearings,  on this very point.

There are considerable differences in evaluation of what constitutes serious damage. The point of asking the question is that the guidance in the Case Book and the IJ Manual do not seem to have acheived their purpose of establishing anything approaching consistency in protest decisions.

Constantly repeating the terms of the sparse interpretations available in ISAF texts does not answer the question, because we have established that these texts have failed in that they are understood in very different ways. Evidently, judges and competitors need further discussion of this question

Personally, as you can see by the examples of serious damage I have presented here I have a somewhat severe idea of what constitutes serious damage, n that I tend to set the bar quite  low.

The discussion has also wandered on to the other mentions of damage in the rules:

- when does damage prevent a boat from being exonerated from not avoiding contact
- when does damage make a boat's race score significantly worse.
Gordon
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 1:37pm
I thought it was focusing pretty successfully on 'serious damage'.

Case 19 is about what is and is not 'damage', which is important for rule 14( b ).

'Serious damage' is important for rules 44.1( b ), and 60.3( a )(1).

Gordon proposed a list of types of serious damage.  I think this is an approach that the drafters of the Cases and the Judges Manual are carefully avoiding.

I have found this thread remarkably constructive and helpful.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 11:26am
I've been confused by this thread from time to time. It seems to drift between 'what the rules/guidance currently are' and 'what the rules/guidance ought to be changed to', with the occasional deviation into 'how many angels does it take to cause damage to a pin when they are dancing on it'...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 10:15am
Originally posted by Brass

The Judges Manual, Section M discusses damage as follows

M.3 Serious Damage
This is not possible to define but a protest committee should ask:
• was the performance of the boat or crew seriously impaired?
• was the market value of the boat significantly diminished?
• was a crew member seriously injured?

Are you saying that you do not agree that, in accordance with this guidance, damage that seriously impairs the performance of the boat is serious damage?

Similarities to straight damage as discussed in Case 19 

Question
Is there a special meaning of ‘damage’ in the racing rules? 

Answer
No. It is not possible to define ‘damage’ comprehensively, but one current English dictionary says ‘harm . . . impairing the value or usefulness of something.’
This definition suggests questions to consider. Examples are:
• Was the current market value of any part of the boat, or of the boat as a whole, diminished?
• Was any item of the boat or her equipment made less functional?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 10:13pm
I would agree that boat's score has been made significantly worse - her performance has been impaired. That condition for redress has been met.

There has been damage - a ROW boat cannot be exonerated if it has been found that she broke rule 14.

A broken jib sheet is not serious damage - a 2 turn penalty at the time of the incident is appropriate.

Other examples - tiller extension broken, mainsheet splice broken, small rip in spinnaker preventing it being sheeted in hard for fear of aggravating tear, helmsman or crew's prescription glasses broken in the contact....
Gordon
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 9:49pm
OK, I take your point.

Can we explore the jib cleat scenario a little further?

Suppose:
  • jib cleat made inoperable without other damage;
  • not practicable to catch a turn of the sheet around the shroud or hold otherwise;
  • thus not practicable to keep jib trimmed and hike properly together;
  • boat finishes say 10 places behind her place when the incident occurred;
  • boat finishes say 10 places behind her average standing in the fleet in the series.
So, pretty clearly, her score is made significantly worse.

Would you agree that this is evidence that her performance was seriously impaired?

Could you describe another example of where, as a result of physical damage, a boat's score might be made significantly worse, but her performance not be seriously impaired?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 4:14pm
No - I am saying that damage that is not serious by those criteria may make a boat's race or series score significantly worse.

'Serious damage' is not a criterion for redress - damage that makes a boat's score significantly worse is (which may or may not be serious)

Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 12:51pm
The Judges Manual, Section M discusses damage as follows

M.3 Serious Damage
This is not possible to define but a protest committee should ask:
• was the performance of the boat or crew seriously impaired?
• was the market value of the boat significantly diminished?
• was a crew member seriously injured?

Are you saying that you do not agree that, in accordance with this guidance, damage that seriously impairs the performance of the boat is serious damage?
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 9:05am
Brass:

There can be a difference between damage that makes a boat's race or series score significantly worse and serious damage.

You cite the case of a broken clam cleat - damaged as a result of contact. This is not serious damage, however, depending on which cleat it is, may mean that the boat's result is made significantly worse. A broken sheet, a rip in a sail which means that it cannot be sheeted home without risking further damage, even broken spectacles - none of these are serious damage but may make a boat's score significantly worse.
Gordon
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