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Neal_g View Drop Down
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Posts: 323 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Proper Course
    Posted: 02 Dec 13 at 1:00pm
was my understanding if the boat comes from clear astern then she cant go to leeward then luff as she had the choice to go to windward, unless i'm reading it wrong of course.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 13 at 3:33pm
This happens a fair amount in handicap racing, where a boat with an assy has to make far bigger changes in course as the wind changes than one without. Generally it screws everyone up, and the clever assy sailors will go to windward where possible, and the clever non assy sailors won't luff them when they do, understanding that is is better to lose wind for a few seconds than to end up on the wrong side of the lake.

Good to have it confirmed that the wind has to change, not just becuase of the windward boat's wind shadow.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 13 at 3:45pm
The way I understand it is that if you establish an overlap to Leeward you are not allowed to luff above your proper course.

We all understand the definition of proper course here I think?

So to my rudimentary understanding, once L gets into the 'dirty' air from W they should not Luff unless they have evidence of a significant shift in the true wind (or unless L is sailing below what could be their proper course).

Edit: As pointed out by Brass the below is no longer true as rule 17.2 have been removed from the rules. I must have been in a time warp!

However we all know that once an overlap is established by L that W is not allowed to sail below their proper course unless they immediately gybe..... So the whole 'both boats below proper course' argument is a little bit of a red herring as W should have come up to their proper course once the overlap is established.


Edited by jeffers - 03 Dec 13 at 2:36pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 13 at 9:14pm
Doesn't have to be a shift in true wind. A lull (a real one, not boat induced) will do just as well. Proving things one way or another would probably take witnesses, wouldn't it?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 13 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by Neal_g

was my understanding if the boat comes from clear astern then she cant go to leeward then luff as she had the choice to go to windward, unless i'm reading it wrong of course.

You seem to be relying on memory or slogans rather than reading the rules.

Here's what the rules say:

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

DEFINITIONS PROPER COURSE
Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.


Originally posted by jeffers

The way I understand it is that if you establish an become overlapped to Leeward within two of your hull lengths you are not allowed to luff sail above your proper course.

Couple of little tidy-ups to match the current rules.

We all understand the definition of proper course here I think?

Quoted above.

So to my rudimentary understanding, once L gets into the 'dirty' air from W they should not Luff unless they have evidence of a significant shift in the true wind (or unless L is sailing below what could be their proper course).

Originally posted by Rupert

Doesn't have to be a shift in true wind. A lull (a real one, not boat induced) will do just as well. Proving things one way or another would probably take witnesses, wouldn't it?

It will be W protesting, so the starting point is that W will need to bring evidence about what L's proper course was, probably including that the wind did not change.

As I said before
Originally posted by Brass

If W brought evidence to a protest hearing that she observed the breeze was consistent in strength and direction throughout, then the protest committee might infer that any change in wind experienced by L was as a result of W, and that her change in course would not have been made in the absence of W.

Note that a lull in the true wind will initially bring the apparent on L forward,, so her appropriate response may not be to come up.

Originally posted by jeffers

However we all know that once an overlap is established by L that W is not allowed to sail below their proper course unless they immediately gybe..... So the whole 'both boats below proper course' argument is a little bit of a red herring as W should have come up to their proper course once the overlap is established.

Sorry, we know nothing of the kind.

Rule 17.2, which used to say that was deleted in the 2009 rewrite of the RRS.


Edited by Brass - 02 Dec 13 at 10:00pm
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deadrock View Drop Down
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Posts: 85 		Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 13 at 11:03pm
Does anyone know why 17.2 was deleted?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 13 at 11:30pm
Short discussion here

http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/rules-simplification-sometimes-it.html

Submission 

REPORTING COMMITTEE – RACING RULES 
OTHER COMMITTEE - 
 
Page 206 of 331 
Submission: 183-07 
 
Racing Rules of Sailing 
Rule 17.2 
 
A submission from the Norwegian Sailing Federation 
Proposal: 
Delete rule 17.2 and renumber rule 17.1 to rule 17. 
 
Current Position: 
17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPOER COURSE 
17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of 
a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain 
overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the 
other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is 
required by rule 13 to keep clear. 
17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a 
leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not 
sail below her proper course unless she gybes. 
 
Reason: 
Rule 17.2 is redundant. It is also a rule that sailors break when approaching a gybe 
mark clear ahead of a boat astern and to leeward. In such a situation, the clear 
ahead boat will bear away to ensure the other boat does not get an inside overlap at 
the mark. The reason for this bear away is the other boat – it follows that this is not a 
proper course and the boat breaks rule 17.2. A rule that makes traditional 
manoeuvring prohibited should be deleted from the rule book. 
The purpose of the rule was to ensure that there was at least one passing lane for a 
boat coming from astern. With the introduction of rule 16 some years ago, passing a 
boat to windward at some distance became less of a hazard, because when altering 
course the leeward boat had to give the windward boat room to keep clear, and if 
attempting to pass to leeward, the other boat would become windward and required 
to keep clear. 
The deletion of rule 17.2 would make the racing rules of sailing simpler. 
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deadrock View Drop Down
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Posts: 85 		Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 13 at 12:34am
When the rule was changed I was of the same opinion as the comment-poster on
http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/rules-simplification-sometimes-it.html, 
in that deletion of 17.2 made it harder to go through a boat to leeward on a run. It used to be a valuable tactic, except that many boats less than 3 lengths ahead would still bear away on you, unaware that they were not supposed to. I see now that Rule 16 made the difference, at least making it possible to overtake to windward, and I guess on balance it makes for better racing.
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 13 at 11:58am
I've always taken the proper course to allow me to come up when in the wind shadow of W to fill my spinnaker.  I was involved in a protest on this rule last month that did nothing to dissuade me of that - since I mentioned that I had come up to fill my kite (which had collapsed due to the shadow) and the facts found clearly stated that I had not sailed above my proper course.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 13 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by flaming

since I mentioned that I had come up to fill my kite (which had collapsed due to the shadow)


I'd say the decision should have been appealed...

It seems then that this is a reasonably widely held misreading of the rule. I must say I'm rather staggered since I thought the wording "absence of other boats" was quite clear enough to exclude wind shadow.

Edited by JimC - 03 Dec 13 at 12:18pm
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