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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Replica Laser/Torch parts
    Posted: 26 Apr 13 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by gary145

why should the club sailor subsidize the top events?  Shouldn't they be self financing?
 


Surely you're not suggesting that idle f**king layabouts on the ISAF circuit should get a job like the rest of us?
Best wishes from deep in the woods

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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 13 at 8:31am
Originally posted by gary145


Originally posted by fdsailor

Head above the parapet here...duck!!! I don't wholly agree with Mark's article and many of the comments. Yes it would be much better for the club sailor (i.e. the majority). But there are implications.The Laser phenomenon at grand-prix international level
is a class which hosts very professional level events, often with
builder supplied boats, with all the peripheral 'circus' that goes along
with prestigious events. The money for these events has to come from
somewhere. Whilst there are sponsors, I suspect that at least part of
all this has to be subsidized by a margin on spare parts.


 
why should the club sailor subsidize the top events?  Shouldn't they be self financing?
 
 


They're expensive enough (ie at least as pricey as equivalent regattas in smaller classes without an ailing quasi Marxist philosophy) so I suspect again that nothing from the several hundred percent markup on the price of your boat or parts is going there - somebody is on the take from the new boat cash once again.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 13 at 9:17am
... but not making enough money to turn a healthy profit?  Just like Starbucks then... my heart bleeds.
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Dougal View Drop Down
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Posts: 556 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 13 at 9:19am
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Originally posted by gary145


Originally posted by fdsailor

Head above the parapet here...duck!!! I don't wholly agree with Mark's article and many of the comments. Yes it would be much better for the club sailor (i.e. the majority). But there are implications.The Laser phenomenon at grand-prix international level
is a class which hosts very professional level events, often with
builder supplied boats, with all the peripheral 'circus' that goes along
with prestigious events. The money for these events has to come from
somewhere. Whilst there are sponsors, I suspect that at least part of
all this has to be subsidized by a margin on spare parts.


 
why should the club sailor subsidize the top events?  Shouldn't they be self financing?
 
 


They're expensive enough (ie at least as pricey as equivalent regattas in smaller classes without an ailing quasi Marxist philosophy) so I suspect again that nothing from the several hundred percent markup on the price of your boat or parts is going there - somebody is on the take from the new boat cash once again.

Given the top events do not include club opens, then the subsidised events are qualifiers and national/Europeans/worlds.  I would be interested to know what proportion of laser owners actually attend these.  Personally, in 10 years do laser sailing I did one nationals (which to be honest was a pretty miserable experience) and plenty of local club opens which were a lot of fun (but not subsidised).

Also, if I were in the class and paying my fees, I would be subsidising world and European championships that I would not be allowed to compete at. 

In the early days of the class I can see that raising the profile is important, but the laser (or torch) class is established in clubs and the argument that club sailors must subsidise the big events to keep the class alive does not in my mind apply any more.

The only conclusion I can draw (and this is in agreement with many posts already on here) is that the profits from the laser (be it boats or parts or subs or whatever) are being used elsewhere land not for the benefit of the class.  The whole business model needs to be reappraised and, this might be a bit controversial, the owners whoever they may be should start thinking about what the biggest sector of their customer base (i.e. the club sailor) actually wants.
What could possibly go wrong?
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deadrock View Drop Down
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Posts: 85 		Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 13 at 10:15am
Just to keep one thing straight: the UK Laser Association 'Qualifier' circuit, the Nationals. and the Grand Prix circuit are funded by the competitors' entry fees. The UK Qualifiers and the Nationals are budgeted to make a small profit, because if you don't plan to make a profit (i.e. if you merely plan to break even) you end up making a loss. The profits go back into funding your Association and keeping the subs down.

The various Regional (e.g. the Europeans) and World championships are run by ILCA. The hefty fees charged for entry, boat-charter etc., to these events, and the need for pre-registration would also indicate that they are substantially self-financing.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 13 at 8:11pm
I'd say the Laser class would be mad to open up sail makers. What they need to do, somehow, is gain control over the right to choose who makes the sails. The Firefly class has been doing this since 1946, and is on their 2nd sail maker, as Ratsey and Lapthorn were loosing interest by the late 70's, and the quality was dropping, so in the very early 80's moved to (Musto and) Hyde. A suit of Freddie sails is far cheaper than a suit  (- Spinny) of Mirror sails, where there is open competition, yet the quality seems just as good, and there is rather more material.

In almost any boat people race seriously where there is choice, people will buy the winning sails, not the cheap ones - why see yourself at a disadvantage before even launching?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 13 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by Rupert

A suit of Freddie sails is far cheaper than a suit  (- Spinny) of Mirror sails, where there is open competition,


A Mirror racing man and jib from Trident is currently cheaper than a suit of Firefly sails.

Originally posted by Rupert

yet the quality seems just as good, and there is rather more material.


Offset by the higher price of coloured cloth.
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SB

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I luv Wight View Drop Down
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Posts: 628 		Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 13 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by deadrock
The various Regional (e.g. the Europeans) and World championships are run by ILCA. The hefty fees charged for entry, boat-charter etc., to these events, and the need for pre-registration would also indicate that they are substantially self-financing.
[/QUOTE



So where does the huge mark-up on standard parts go? ( if not to subsidise the major events )

(some weird double quoting going on here)


So where does the huge mark-up on standard parts go? ( if not to subsidise the major events )

(some weird double quoting going on here)


Edited by I luv Wight - 28 Apr 13 at 9:44pm

http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
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blueboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 5:59am
Originally posted by fdsailor

The Laser phenomenon at grand-prix international level is a class which hosts very professional level events, often with builder supplied boats


I'm not at all convinced that supply of boats to these events is a subsidy. When the Worlds were last in the UK, Laser supplied several hundred new boats to the Radials Worlds, for which sailors paid a charter fee of (IIRC) £400. The boats were then shipped from Scotland to Hampshire and the Standards sailors paid another £400 fee. At the end of the exercise, the boats were sold as "nearly new" at close to the new price. Yes in a few cases there would be minor rectification work and shipping the boats around cost something.  However I was peripherally involved in helping run the Standards and it appeared most of the work involved onsite e.g. unpacking and organisation was done by HISC staff and helpers, not Laser.

So where's this big subsidy in the supply of boats? It looks to me there's a distinct possibility Laser made a nice profit on the exercise.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 6:24am
A query to those with business finance backgrounds - how easily could a company the size of a Laser builder (not just PSE which is probably the biggest, but the others as well) find the funding to produce the worlds fleets? If they build 100 new boats then even allowing for a 50% markup they've had to find $350,000 AUS. One assumes that most of the people who buy them would have bought a new Laser anyway, therefore the actual increase in Laser sales as a result of holding a Worlds and building a Worlds fleet appears to be small.  Does anyone know how many of the Worlds boats are pre-sold compared to the number that lingers in a lot for months afterwards?
 
In my experience (which includes a decade in the boating industry) finding $350,000 or whatever (minus the amount of cash brought in by pre-sold boats) is NOT easy for a small company, and therefore the "inflated" prices for gear could be the necessary extra profit needed for the business model.
 
And as others have said before me, if the Laser is such a cash cow then why have quite a few Laser builders gone broke? I know that other factors have been involved (the L28 killed the initial builder) but there seems to be no evidence that Laser manufacturers are using their horrendous profits from Lasers to buy bigger jets to carry their hordes of mistresses, racing cars and cocaine.  In fact several of the Laser builders seem to have been passionate and expert dinghy sailors who were running small businesses, not millionaires with multinationals.
 
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