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    Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:08pm
You can make the kite smaller so that it is slower on a run and faster on a reach - that evens out the polars. Like the 200 has. I banged on about it during the 100 development, but the folk who stumped up cash wanted a FO big kite to go downhill as quick as possible.

There are many potential technical solutions to making faster boats, but they tend to compromise cost, robustness, stability, PITA factor etc.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Peaky

I banged on about it during the 100 development, but the folk who stumped up cash wanted a FO big kite to go downhill as quick as possible. ..

you did indeed, but I don't remember many of those folks who ponied up having a FO big kite on their wish list though.... it kind of came along for ride during the development phase from what I recall.    


Edited by pondmonkey - 11 Feb 13 at 3:14pm
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Originally posted by pondmonkey

 
Are we actually deluded enough to think 'yoof' will hang around sailing clubs and go dinghy sailing if the boats are keweller and faster?  I doubt many could afford it even if they were.  The issues are socio-economic, not hardware related.  The risk of bringing new classes out is that is alienates and fractionates the one active demographic with cash to actually spend on (new) boats.  And the cost of re-entry to the sport goes up... most MAMILS don't buy a £5k roadie for their first bike.
 
Agree on the sailing club bit, but you have to start somewhere.
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by JimC

I don't know that the asymmetric boats have such lumpy polars because they have asymmetric kites. They have the lumpy polars simply because they are so fast. Exactly the same narrow windows of peak performance developed towards the end of pole kites. In practice by the end of pole kites we were already learning to sail hot angles all the time anyway in some breeze.
 
If it was relatively easy to get big performance gains on the hot angles, why do you think so little has happened on the cold(off?) angles?
 
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The one area of the sport which keeps 18-22 year olds really, really active is team racing.  The format just works well as is not reliant on individually owned boats.  However once we'd graduated myself and few oldies decided to enter a pukka UKTRA event and were surprised that 

a) everyone took it way too seriously
b) no one stayed around for a drink in the evening

We went back on the uni circuit as an old boys team, but you have a short shelf life doing that.

I wouldn't be interested now, but back in my early twenties it would have been a far more rewarding experience to keep team racing and match racing than flog around a sunday morning course in a Laser.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:29pm
A lot of this comes down to the science of fast boats and apparent wind effects. It doesn't matter what boat you have, or how much rag you sling up: once the sails are stalled you won't go much faster than about 75% windspeed, because if you do you'll run out of wind energy.

If the sails aren't stalled then apparent wind is king. That has a tendency to mean you go fastest at the point where you run out of righting moment. If you have a small kite that means that there's enormous potential for sailing high and gong no-where, and the losses if you get on the wrong side of a shift are catastrophic.

And there seems to be a funny psychological thing going on too. Consider: people claim that what they love doing is going fast. So they ought to welcome a boat in which they sail very high very fast with a poor vmg, because that's how you get to maximise the time sent sailing fast. However in practice people find that frustrating, and want boats to go deeper, and that's what drives bigger kites.

Then the bigger the kite the greater the contrast between kite up and kite down, and the lower the kite can be held, and thus the tendency for windward leeward only boats.

If you add to that that handling can be rather tricky shy reaching on really fast boats then it can be seen how these tendencies happen.

Originally posted by rb_stretch


If it was relatively easy to get big performance gains on the hot angles, why do you think so little has happened on the cold(off?) angles?

Because there's no advantage in doing so. Its always quicker to sail the hot angles (provided you stay on the right side of the shifts).

Edited by JimC - 11 Feb 13 at 3:56pm
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:33pm
Great obs Jim, and FWIW yesterday was some great sailing... plenty of planing reaches.  I didn't miss a kite one bit, in fact I think it would have been rather numb and disinteresting hanging out the back of a singlehander with one up.
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Posts: 346 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:35pm
 
Originally posted by pondmonkey

 


... and yes, it was also a daughter based thought pattern for the miracle conversion too.

OuchOosh, that a lot of money for  bloody clamp.  Do you think it would be safe to use on a carbon mast?
Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

If we take point that sailing needs to be accessible, exciting and cheap for today's yoof to stay engaged, re-engage in club sailing, have we actually done anything about it in the right areas? Hence my thought about even performance rather than one-trick ponies...more performance, less speed possibly?


But the "point" is merely an opinion. The reason kids probably leave the sport is because once they get away from it for a while the scales drop from their eyes and they see it for what it is - a cash cow for a few pretentious Olympic wannabe layabouts. It must be galling for these kids to work hard and study to get a good qualification then graduate with a mountain of debt and no certainty of getting a job to then see these layabouts who've never done a day's work in their life swanning around the globe all expenses paid.

Owning a competitive racing dinghy never will be cheap. Dinghy racing as a sport blossomed in the post-war years on the back home-built boats which, in kit form or from plans were within the budget of the skilled working man (e.g, GP14, Heron, Fireball, Mirror). Sadly in many classes today a home-built wooden boat would not be competitive against an example built in FRP or Epoxy. Basically the sport has killed its own roots and is now suffering the consequences.

As for better all-round performance there's already well-established classes for that (Osprey, Fireball, 505, Javelin).
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by Kev M

 
Originally posted by pondmonkey

 


... and yes, it was also a daughter based thought pattern for the miracle conversion too.

OuchOosh, that a lot of money for  bloody clamp.  Do you think it would be safe to use on a carbon mast?


 i use it on windsurf masts and booms, it has rubberised clamps which are pretty easy going.... If you want to borrow it and the Go Pro for a couple of weeks or so, PM me your address... no sweat if I don't clog up You Tube and Facebook with my crappy video footage for a bit.
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