Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Dinghy Development |
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iGRF ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 10:19pm |
I look forward to joining this on my return from the land of the bratwurst and Finn Sailors, but for now am in a shoebox right next door to 'Hooker Hof' with very dodgy internet access..
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tick ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 16 Nov 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
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Now this is very interesting. Admittedly GRF is away reinforcing his existing fortune in Europe but this post is fading. Does this imply that none of our illustrious contributors see or imagine any significant future developments? It would seem that we would rather worry about sail numbers and cardboard rudder wings.
Perhaps the fact that a boat designed by Peter Milne years ago won the Tiger indicates that there is no possible development? I suspected that. |
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maxibuddah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760 |
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Tick,
I don't think that it's that there is no room for any possible development, but if something is already 95% of the way to being right is there any point in spending shed loads of cash trying to fix the last bit. Lots of existing designs may not appeal to people like grf but they are more than adequate for the job for a majority. Anything new that can improve on the best designs already out there will have a horrendous initial outlay that can impact on the purchase price. What's the point if all that happens is you end up sailing on your own? It's got to be pretty special to overcome that. |
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Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Exactly Maxi.
Anyway Tick, here’s my off-the-cuff 2p. In my living memory new designs seem to split into one of two camps – “Faster Is Better” and “Build ‘Em Cheap”. The FIB boats get lots of photo’s in Y&Y, lots of chatter on forums and are generally admired by the connoisseurs on this, and other, forums. But, relatively few people put their money where the mouth is. Why? Because the easy way to make a faster design is to make a lighter, narrower hull, with above water extensions and a big rig. So they become harder to sail, more prone to damage and more expensive. You need time and money to succeed, and not many people have both. At the other end of the spectrum, the BEC boats are generally poorly regarded, but sell well (and presumably are commercially successful). These days they are rotomoulded and perceived as flexible and heavy and often come with very basic rigs. I would imagine that many of these boats are bought by people who sail for only a very few weeks of the year, who don’t want to spend a fortune, don’t want maintenance issues that can come with 2nd hand boats and don’t necessarily know or care that the boat isn’t very good at its primary function – sailing. One of the main reasons that some traditional classes continue to do well is that they are well proportioned. They are not too light and too narrow. They are attainable. Future designs should seek to be nicer to sail and possibly faster, based not on making them narrower and harder to sail, but by virtue of the fact we have a better understanding of the physics, a wider choice of materials and many, many years of feedback to work on. The hulls of Fireballs, Solo’s etc were designed to be good within the constraints of being able to build them from ply. This limits the shapes available. We no longer have those constraints, so, for example, we ought to be able to design a Solo type boat, aimed at the same demographic, using similar dimensions but with improved hull shape. So where do I see future developments? Well, it will be easy to continue to make boats slightly lighter and slightly narrower than the previous generation, and these will continue to not sell well. There is potentially much to be gained in underwater appendages and their control – be it T-foiled rudders, Tomahawk style foils, trim tabs, stern flaps, bulbous bows etc. These will either become passive (like the Tomahawk), or electronically autonomously controlled. On a slightly mundane front, cockpits will become more ergonomic and more tactile materials will be used. Hulls will be made from re-inforced thermoplastics, which are tougher and greener than polyester or epoxy boats, and much stiffer and lighter than current plastic boats. This will hopefully enable the gap between the FIBs and the BECs to be bridged. Lots of rambling there, sorry! |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Making a boat that is faster all round, in all conditions, but no harder to sail than what is currently on the market? Hmmm
Given that in light winds on a small lake, a Firefly can easily beat a 29er, say, but on the sea in a force 4, the 29er will just sail away, shows the magnitude of the problem. Design is all about compromise and designing for a use. The boats designed in the 50's and 60's had user friendliness higher up the lists than modern fast boats, and light wind performance higher up than even the slow boats designed recently. Example - the 2000 (lovely boat), which has been discussed recently on here a lot, is very much a more modern GP14. Yet in light airs, the GP14 is the faster boat, from my experience, but lacks the same top end speed. Looking at the hull shapes, it is pretty clear why. Personally, the doodles I do (and will turn into a boat one day) look back to America in the 1890's as a starting point, and the idea is to develop something up to date from that direction, just cherrypicking what I consider to the best bits of post-war dinghy development. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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fab100 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Mar 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1005 |
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nice analysis Peaky
Taking your points on, I would argue there are broadly 3 types of dinghy sailors:
Of course, the boundaries are rather fuzzy and many classes cross over to try and satisfy more than one group. And the weather plays its part - gybing an Ent in a fluky F7 is far more brown-trouser experience than sailing an RS800 in rock-steady 3 knots. Before the days of asymmetrics and twin-wiring, the speed-freaks all disappeared to sail- There is nothing wrong with being in either of these categories. But the group 1 types need to understand that to the other 2, the foibles of the boat are largely irrelevant as long as it delivers close, friendly racing (or safe cruising). Which is why the laser-sl*ggers completely miss the point - they are comparing apples not with oranges but with calvados. A consequence of this answers the OP - most sailors are not bothered about ultimate performance and the associated the expense and complexity - chasing that goal makes their sailing worse, not better. And the more new classes, the greater the dilution from class racing too. |
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tick ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 16 Nov 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
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Very interesting opinions intelligently expressed. However all that is being suggested are modifications or improvements to existing design parameters. What I was hoping for was a new way, fresh thought. A way of converting windy stuff into moving a floaty thing over water. The only significant development that I can think since the Egyptians is foils. Apart from that what? We use carbon fibre instead of wood fibre and now we are considering going back to bamboo. The vacuum cleaner was totally different to the broom that preceded it and is usually superior. A new broom so to speak but Dyson just improved an existing product (in theory anyway). A Dyson is the new Hoover and Laser 2000 is the new GP14 but where is the new idea, the steam engine where there was none, the cart where there was none.
Is the development of sailing already developed?
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pondmonkey ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2202 |
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I don't know how many want the 'boat handling challenge', as opposed to those who merely accept it as part and parcel of those compromises required to achieving the 'ultimate performance', or merely something worth going off-piste and away from the established fleets for. The rapid take-up of the 100 surely demonstrates that those with the cash, desire and the sense, (middle-aged blokes primarily) may admire the Musto Skiff and Moth, but reluctantly accept they are too time poor, or simply too lacking in skill or fitness to do either or an alternative real justice? It seems with the bunching up at bigger waters, the class has somehow alienated the smaller puddle sailor in its original target... albeit there are some well known exceptions to this trend hey Clive ;-) Oh the irony of it all once you spend 6 months in planing winds on a windsurfer and get vaguely competent.... 20 knots is a pisser, 25 simple enough, 30 a proper challenge... for someone who sails maybe twice a month; 40 for those committed to a level on par with the average dinghy circuit bunny. And that's only if speed is your thing. There are far more performance areas to look at for personal achievement- freestyle, carving, wave riding, jumping... even racing, if you're weird enough to enjoy sailing a barn door or some 1980's model aircraft carrier. Oddly enough, windsurfing (the purest freeride sailing I've experienced) makes you appreciate the subtleties of a 'perfect' displacement boat all the more and how they can be applied to a racing programme. (The use of quotes to demonstrate irony; no such thing as perfect, just a blend of tolerable compromise and rarely will there be enough local interest in the one specific class you'd match better too in my experience!!!) Edited by pondmonkey - 05 Feb 13 at 1:54pm |
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fab100 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Mar 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1005 |
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I suspect rather a lot of thought is going into just this in every America's Cup team
They are playing with cats, foils, wing sails and massive budgets to find that crucial edge. Elsewhere, there are (falling-off) canting keels and even canting rigs So I advise that if anyone does have something really game-changing, please quietly tell Sir Ben and his BAR team but keep it secret from the rest of us! Of course, the big development over sail appeared with the advent of steam engines over 200 years ago
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There was a big change, at some point in the past. Early boats could only sail downwind, blown along by drag. To sail upwind, or downwind quickly, you need to develop lift. That is a fundamental change in the way the boat is propelled, albeit the solution may not look radically different.
Other changes, like using string instead of a mast, or canting and offsetting the rig to eliminate heeling moment, like on SailRocket, are possible. But then is it really a dinghy? All you can do is find more efficient ways of extracting energy from the wind and water. Things like variable geometry, or flexible parts in lieu of stiff parts (and vice versa) may help, but you'll need to find a new energy source to revolutionise the game - maybe magnetism, heat or making use of micro scale fluid movement and vibration, but that will be a wee way off yet! |
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