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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 25 Mar 15 at 10:53pm
So looking at the French example, we see that adopting a similar system for 'banded' racing would mean;
 
* Boats as different as the 470, foiling Moth, 49er, 18 Foot Skiff and RS400 would all have to race together on scratch (!) Dare one say that a RS400 crew who scored a close 4th over the line in such a fleet may be a tad disenchanted if the results sheet tells them that they have done poorly?
 
* If an RS500 sets mylar sails, it would have to compete on scratch with 18 Foot Skiffs and foiling Moths. If the very same boat set dacron sails, it would get to compete on scratch with RS100s with 8m2 sails.  Is that fairer than Portsmouth?
 
* The Laser Radial would have to compete on level terms with the faster standard Laser, and probably with the Rooster 8.1. Maybe it's just me, but if someone has the same boat but 42% more sail I would struggle to think we were having fair racing.
 
* Where is the evidence that the French system is better?  As I understand it the similar OSIRIS system they use for yachts is used for 50 footers racing in the Channel and for vintage 18 foot trailable cruisers racing on the small inland lakes, so they seem to accept that rating systems must cover very disparate sailing areas.
 
PS - as noted earlier, while checking out the systems from other countries why not look at US PHRF or NZ and Australian CBH; they'll show you how contentious an opinion-based system can be.  The comparative rating of some classes varies by around 3% (the same as the difference between an EPS and a 100 or 300) to 6%, depending on the differing opinions of different official handicapping boards.
 
 
 


Edited by Chris 249 - 25 Mar 15 at 11:37pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 15 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by rb_stretch

I'm all ears on a practical way to do this, because as I suspect with many other clubs, we seem to be only able to make decisions based on data....

yep- because as a club there's an assumed social side to it which brings in small p, politics into the equation.  AIUI, this isn't such an issue in a sport which works very positively with personal handicaps ingrained in its culture- like  squash league or golf.  

I really don't envy the guys who make the decisions to locally adjust another member's handicap.... they must have far broader shoulders than I would, most sailors I know would not want personal handicaps, which is essentially what local adjustment is perceived as. 
 
Late reply, but it's not just sports like squash or golf that have personal handicaps ingrained in their culture - in some areas dinghy sailing has personal handicaps ingrained in the culture in some areas.  It pretty much just underlines your point that this is a social/cultural issue rather than anything else.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 15 at 7:56am
All the personal handicap sports are playing with the same kit, roughly. Maybe some are more expensive, but they fit the same rules. That is like Lasers or Merlins even running personal handicapping. Putting 2 systems on top of each other doesn't make much sense to me.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 15 at 8:24am
Agreed - and if we apply some Darwinism to it, one could assume that if competitive sailing really suited a Personal Handicapping format, then that is probably how it would have developed, or it would certainly be more common place than it currently is, in dinghies anyway.

Maybe PY is not a cultural issue or problem, here's a thought... Perhaps it's the solution?


Edited by turnturtle - 26 Mar 15 at 8:25am
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 15 at 9:01am
The only way a banded system works if you have boats that have similar overall speed.
Otherwise you would have to force designs to more or less the same performance. 
Bit like handicap horse racing where successful horses tend to carry more weight.
Like weighing down a Merlin to match a GP14's overall speed.

Though the thought (for personal handicap) of force feeding pies to the better helms/crews would be an interesting concept
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 15 at 9:09am
Do the Phantom class do that already?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 15 at 9:22am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Agreed - and if we apply some Darwinism to it, one could assume that if competitive sailing really suited a Personal Handicapping format, then that is probably how it would have developed, or it would certainly be more common place than it currently is, in dinghies anyway.

Maybe PY is not a cultural issue or problem, here's a thought... Perhaps it's the solution?

But competitive sailing in some areas DID develop a Personal Handicapping format, and the place where it is probably most common may well have a higher proportion of the population engaged in sailboat racing than anywhere else, or pretty close to it.  It doesn't mean that it's better, but there's evidence that it's not worse, or not something that evolution cannot create.

The fact that two of the world's top sailing nations have opposing ideas on the use of personal handicapping seems to indicate that neither is wrong, and probably the attitudes to personal handicapping have been a factor that has caused (and been caused by) some of the ways in which dinghy sailing in those two countries has developed.


Edited by Chris 249 - 26 Mar 15 at 9:23am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 15 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Rupert

All the personal handicap sports are playing with the same kit, roughly. Maybe some are more expensive, but they fit the same rules. That is like Lasers or Merlins even running personal handicapping. Putting 2 systems on top of each other doesn't make much sense to me.

Having personal handicap racing in mixed fleets is very common in Oz, Ireland (ECHO), NZ, etc.   It works OK; arguably as well as PY - after all if you can have one Laser giving another Laser 10% on personal handicap, there's no big issue with a 420 giving the slow Laser 5% as well.

FWIW I think the missing link in some ways may be a personal handicap for skippers that they can take from class to class and from year to year and is added to the PY of whatever boat they are sailing at the time.  It would suit the modern ideal of sports where self-improvement against a personal benchmark is all important, rather than one's performance against competitors.

Around here most of the club fleets of mixed cruiser/racers have ONLY personal handicap racing, which is utterly bizarre IMHO, but isn't that the basis of the RYA's new national cruiser scheme?


Edited by Chris 249 - 26 Mar 15 at 9:38am
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 15 at 9:43am
Originally posted by JohnJack

The only way a banded system works if you have boats that have similar overall speed.
Otherwise you would have to force designs to more or less the same performance. 
Bit like handicap horse racing where successful horses tend to carry more weight.
Like weighing down a Merlin to match a GP14's overall speed.


And the other question is, what happens when someone tries to speed their class boat up to the maximum pace allowed in their band?

If you're a top sailor in a class that carries corrector weights, but you still get beaten by faster boats in your band, could you take your weights out and declare that your boat is now a "No-K" or "Tasarlite" and remain in the same band?  Otherwise, those who owned and loved boats at the middle or slow end of each band would just have to turn up each week and get beaten by people who had faster boats.

If we had a system that ignored the fact that a Laser or Radial has a much smaller rig than a Rooster 8.1 and forced them all to race together, how could we get upset if the Radial skipper started modifying their boat to reduce the disadvantage? 
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 15 at 9:50am
Personal handicapping works very well AIUI across a mixed fleet at a well known club near the M4. Their mid-week series is hugely popular. All you need to do is adjust the boat's 'standard' PY by a percentage either up or down.

We did it at the Surrey puddle for a while and it was reasonably successful,  but then faded again for reasons that were unclear and not well explored.

I think it needs fleets of a certain size to make it interesting enough to persevere.
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