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GybeFunny View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Feb 11 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by tickler

It seems a little harsh to wish failure on Mr Cockerill but I could never see his figures adding up. I also wish GRF luck although I think he is designing for a market of one.

In my opinion the trouble with Laser is the ancient rig and although they are such a successfull international class surely it would be so much better with a Byte C2 type rig. That would help to drag all those old hulls out of the nettles and get them on the water. We don't need a new basic singlehander just update the old market leader.

Would it really get old boats out the nettles or would it mean more boats end up in the nettles as their owners realise they will have to pay lots of money to make it competitive again? I fear the latter! I am quite excited about the RPX but it does seem to be direct competition for the Rooster 8.1 rig.

The V-twin looks good, it is great that GRF is taking the gamble as it takes people thinking outside the box to help evolve everything else. It doesnt appeal to me but thats not to say some spin-off/learning from it wont end up in/on some boat I own in the future. I hope it works out!
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Posts: 324 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hughph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 11 at 9:30pm
I'm really looking forward to seeing some photos really once it begins to take shape! Shame GRF never sent me the spec to read..... Oh well. 

Twin boards will make launching and recovery interesting- unless they are pivoting and have one up and one down line together.... 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 11 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by tickler

It seems a little harsh to wish failure on Mr Cockerill but I could never see his figures adding up. I also wish GRF luck although I think he is designing for a market of one.

In my opinion the trouble with Laser is the ancient rig and although they are such a successfull international class surely it would be so much better with a Byte C2 type rig. That would help to drag all those old hulls out of the nettles and get them on the water. We don't need a new basic singlehander just update the old market leader.
I wasn't really wishing failure on Steve, who seems like a fine chap, but hoping that the class that is arguably the world's #1 would get the support it deserves (IMHO) rather than suffering something that seemed to be a takeover attempt.  As you say, add-ons to the Laser could update it while building on the huge base the class has (although personally I feel a new rig may not be worth the inevitable turmoil) and the hulls do last okay.

Something like the V Twin could get more energy into the area (adult's performance boats) that may really need it.  We're losing too many people to yachts, perhaps because the average adult weekend sailor may find a skiff or 505 type too technical or difficult to sail.



Edited by Chris 249 - 04 Feb 11 at 11:03pm
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Posts: 290 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Inland sea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 11 at 11:03pm
GRF Vtwin help is at hand right here

In fairness good luck Clap
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 11 at 12:37pm
I know its off topic a bit but the Laser bashing is all a bit daft.
 
The boat provides great racing on all sizes and types of water and performs well in all wind strengths.
 
It still must be the cheapest class in which you can be competetive.
 
The rig is not as bad as people make out - just because its not fully battened or mylar it gets slated. Its actually pretty effective and allows the boat to sail well in drifters to very high winds.
 
There aren't many hiking single handers that are much quicker - despite the 'poor rig'.
 
We all moan that Laser rip us off for sails and spares but all in all its pretty cheap racing.
 
There arent many other classes where you can buy an old hull, clean it, refurb the foils, change a few ropes, get a new sail and be pretty much on the pace for club/opens.
 
You suddenly realise how difficult it is to initially get competetive, and stay there, when you change classes from the Laser. Theres usually a lot more fiddling and way more expense involved.
 
If you dont like the boat - dont sail it - simple.
 
So stop giving it a hard time - it still does what it was designed to do brilliantly.
 
 
 
 
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 11 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by rich96

I know its off topic a bit but the Laser bashing is all a bit daft.
 
The boat provides great racing on all sizes and types of water and performs well in all wind strengths.
 
It still must be the cheapest class in which you can be competetive.
 
.....
 
 


Is that true?
Competitive life of a hull? Short!
Competitive life of sails? Short.

It is a great boat that provides good club racing for lots of people, but the serious players have to change their boats pretty often. Older hulls get progressively softer and uncompetitive.

It would probably be cheaper in the long run to be competitive at national level in a foam sandwich boat like a Solo.
At international level, Lasers are cheap to get into, but that's a level of competitiveness I don't aspire to. And buying the kit is only part of the budget of course.

Another way of looking at it is 'how many opportunities for good racing do you get, vs annual cost', Lasers must score pretty well on that for club sailors, loads of events at all levels. Depends on what value you place on various events of course.
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 11 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by rich96

I know its off topic a bit but the Laser bashing is all a bit daft.
 
The boat provides great racing on all sizes and types of water and performs well in all wind strengths.
 
It still must be the cheapest class in which you can be competetive.
 
.....
 
 


Is that true?
Competitive life of a hull? Short!
Competitive life of sails? Short.

It is a great boat that provides good club racing for lots of people, but the serious players have to change their boats pretty often. Older hulls get progressively softer and uncompetitive.

It would probably be cheaper in the long run to be competitive at national level in a foam sandwich boat like a Solo.
At international level, Lasers are cheap to get into, but that's a level of competitiveness I don't aspire to. And buying the kit is only part of the budget of course.

Another way of looking at it is 'how many opportunities for good racing do you get, vs annual cost', Lasers must score pretty well on that for club sailors, loads of events at all levels. Depends on what value you place on various events of course.
 
Yes it is true.
 
Whilst older hulls can get softer they dont suffer anything like as much as other classes that rely on rig tension.
 
In addition there are many many older hulls that have hardly been used and perform perfectly well.
 
In years gone by I regularly sought out good older hulls and competed to a decent level (it certainly wasnt the hull that limited my sailing).
 
I also regularly got by with sails that had been used by others for just one or two regattas.
 
I'm sure that you could do perfectly well enough in open meetings etc in a Laser that cost less than a grand all in - you couldnt do that in a Solo.
 
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 11 at 2:24pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 11 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by rich96

.......
In years gone by I regularly sought out good older hulls and competed to a decent level (it certainly wasnt the hull that limited my sailing).
 
I also regularly got by with sails that had been used by others for just one or two regattas.
 
I'm sure that you could do perfectly well enough in open meetings etc in a Laser that cost less than a grand all in - you couldnt do that in a Solo.
 


Having to regularly seek out a fresh hull sort of gives the game away.
The guys with a hull under a year old have an edge over say a 4 year old hull,
who will have an edge over a ten year old hull, even if they are well maintained and down to weight.
That's less true of foam sandwich hulls, where a five year old hull should be just as stiff as a new one, unless it's been damaged.
That is just a property of single skin frp, it really is something we should be not building dinghies from these days.
But I don't really knock Lasers, you can buy one for  £1k, buy a Rooster sail and have great racing against people on similar budgets. Without any tiresome PY debate. Or you can spend £6k or whatever and know you are racing level with some very good sailors. That's not bad!
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 11 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by tickler

Why would laser have to do it? If Rooster took the rig proposed for project x and modified it for  laser hull it would not cost that much. An alternative class could be born which would grow over the years and engulf the original one. And do Laser hulls really deteriorate that much? A 20 year old Byte won the Nationals last year and that is just a polyester lay up.

Regarding V-tin I suppose twin boards demand twin rudders.


According to wikipedia, and my memory, which is  even less reliable, the Topper Bytes were foam sandwich, FWIW.

Anyway, trying to get back on topic, I don't see that twin boards would imply twin rudders, there is no merit in running the rudder in the wake of the board.
Twin rudders that were not parallel would need serious thought about what would happen during a tack or gybe.
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