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Cirrus Icon Development |
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G.R.F. 
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Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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 Topic: Cirrus Icon DevelopmentPosted: 11 Mar 10 at 8:56am |
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I have to ask first.
What is it you have against spinnakers? And second. I found that ball thing we were discussing at theshow, that could be used on a rope traveller to set the sheet angle, looks like you could use it on that I con. (Hopefully not a verb abbreviation). Stopper Ball |
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 9:01am |
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Hi John, I'll leave it to Mike to explain the principles of the class rules, but as I understand it, it will basically be a (very well sorted) SMOD, with some choice left on fit out. With its very small sails (9.3sqm) the Aussie NS14 is weight sensitive. They have recently removed the age and weight rules and the class appears to be shifting from a man/woman boat to a parent/child boat, with an optimum crew weight of around 125kg. That is why the ICON has a longer mast and about 25% more sail area, the target weight is now 145kg. I think you're probably right on the T-foil front, although it would still be an interesting experiment to try. Edit: I took so long to post that Mike beat me to it! Edited by Peaky |
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alstorer
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Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899 |
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 9:08am |
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I'm going to guess: Spinnaker would put it as a direct competitor to 200, 2000 and various roto-tubs. No spinnaker allows it to be aimed as modern alternative to the Enterbox. There's a heck of a lot of people out there sailing two-sail boats of elderly design. |
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Al |
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Slippery Jim
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Joined: 24 Nov 09 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 586 |
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 9:13am |
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Pass the skiff, man!
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 9:21am |
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Graeme, Speaking for myself, and as the first person to bring an NS over here, I have nothing against kites. In fact, I bought an ISO on the very first day they were put on sale back in '93, and have since raced many, many asymmetrics (but not a conventional kite since my 420 days). Asssy kites are fine, but... they a of limited use on some waters where you can't sail the optimum angles due to shallows, shores or tides. They cost - even a titchy 200 style system adds the best part of a grand, with a regular outlay of several hundred pounds for a new one. On a broad reach they are fun, but they only actually increase performance significantly across a fairly small range of wind angles - so the drop in PY from using one is only in the order of 20-30 points. And many people simply do not want the aggro, or physical demands, of a kite. Even in Bethwaite's new book he states that wing masts have a significant performance benefit on reaching courses. Having sailed the NS for a couple of years, I can confirm that reaching speeds are exceptional. The benefit is not just aerodynamic, but also a mast rotated 90 degrees is very stiff across the boat, so the mast doesn't fall away and spill wind when reaching. They are extremely simple to use, and don't need adjusting at all whilst sailing. The fact that all NS's, A class cats, F16s and F18s use them suggests that the benefits are real. |
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blaze720
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Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 9:57am |
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Hi Greame
I'm hardly against spinnakers and was the first in my own club to ever use asymetrics when the ISO came out way back - was the first to sail a 200 at the same club with children when they were small etc etc (but switched to Tasars rather than wait until they were big enough to play the spinnaker !). You forget we also experimented with them on the Blaze as well. The 'chips with everything' approach however does not make commercial sense for us either and does not serve the market well. Cirrus looks for gaps in the market and will mostly avoid part duplication of established classes - for now. If we decide to produce a spinnaker hiking single-hander etc we will make that decision in the future - and it would be on a different hull family etc etc The ICON development is similar and was because I believe there is a latent need for a really modern 2-sail performer. Put a spinnaker on it ? Not really the point is it and you will just have to accept for now my assertions it is really rather quick without. Would it be faster or 'better' .....well arguments can be made both ways - but our strategy is to make it suit a particular group of customers who have already been identified. You may as well ask why people don't put 'proper' wings or trapezes on their boats as well. Enjoy the real choices we all have in the UK - you can have fun with your 100 with 2 sails but we note you are still hanging onto your Blaze - the simplicity of one sail + more leverage have anything to do with it ?  Mike L. |
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tickler
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Joined: 03 Jun 07 Location: Tunstead Milton Online Status: Offline Posts: 895 |
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 10:09am |
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There is a need for a 2 sail pond sailer. I just cannot take to Enterprise, an old image even for old me. We tried Tasar but poor low/flukey wind performance makes it frustrating. 12's would be good but a bit small so there is a need. On a small lake there is nothing like passing a 3 sail boat with its kite wrapped round the forestay and an acrimonious argument taking place all the way to the next mark which may only be 80 yards away.'
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 10:24am |
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But Moths and Cherubs, for instance, have tried them, found the benefits minimal and don't use them any more. I've owned them - still do in fact - but whilst I still suspect there is unfinished business in that area I didn't put one on the PlusPlus and am not considering installing one of the Canoe. Catamarans march to such a different drummer that I'm not sure the comparison is useful, so the NS, with a particularly modest sail area, is really the only devlopment class world wide that has retained them. Bethwaite is now sufficiently unconvinced of the advantages that he proposed a pole mast for his abandoned Tasar mk2 project. There are other ways to control sideways bend reaching: different thickness laminate on the sides of the mast to the back and front being an obvious one. The UK habit of using carbon track rather than plastic doesn't help. Edited by JimC |
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Chris 249
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Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 10:38am |
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You're right, Jim, many classes have abandoned wings - but I suspect that the NSs and Tasars, which are intentionally underpowered and fairly easy-to-handle but efficient boats, are in a special category among dinghies. It's not like a Moth or Cherub where handling is more of an issue.
I'm not sure that the cats march to such a different drummer, and there the wing mast is definitely quick. I always had the feeling that the F16 mast worked in a similar way to the Tasar one. I'm sure you're right in that the benefits have often been over-sold, but IMHO the benefits are there in the underpowered but efficient classes. PS - there was a comment a while back that carbon Northie masts were tough and didn't need as much vang as a Tasar - that may be true but the NS14 forum has a couple of posts where carbon NS masts have broken under vang loads at the gooseneck, which is something I've never seen on the (heavy) Tasar stick! Of course, the problem can be fixed with local modifications, but it was amusing to see a couple of claimed benefits neatly addressed in that way! |
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Posted: 11 Mar 10 at 11:00am |
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As soon as you add a kite (like the Tasar 2 was going to have), some of the benefit of a wing mast is lost - the kite adds such a big performance boost that the mast effects are somewhat lost (but not completely). I also suspect you need a fairly easily driven, low drag hull, which is one reason they work on cats and not (yet) on Merlins. It is also far better to couple the mast to a fully battened sail. I'm not sure that cats do march to a much different drummer - the ICON rig is more like a Tornado than a Tasar one. The clever bit is in the subtlety of getting that to work on a monohull, but it does. Unless to go to the complexity of upper shrouds with on-the-water tensioning, I don't see how you can have a fixed mast that is flexible above the hounds for upwind work but then stiffens when reaching? With the rotating mast, the mast bend varies as the mast rotates. Dead simple. Moths are probably different again with their very demanding handling requirements. |
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