Cirrus Icon Development

Originally posted by Skiffybob Originally posted by RS400atC I'm surprised a carbon mast can be as cheap as £675+VAT. That seems good value compared to RS and Merlin prices. Are we comparing like with like, i.e. retail on a reasonable timescale? It's what I keep saying when people say that SMODs are cheap. They're not. If you can go direct to the manufacturer (which you can normally only do in development classes), you can buy a lot of stuff at half the "monopoly marked-up" price. In fact, you can get a round-section carbon mast tubes for just over £300 from China if you're pepared to buy a sensible volume.

Like I said, no excuse whatsoever for launching a new dinghy in 20xx without carbon spars..... perhaps if we keep this up, mantra-like, on forums like this, someone will notice?

Originally posted by Skiffybob Originally posted by RS400atC I'm surprised a carbon mast can be as cheap as £675+VAT. That seems good value compared to RS and Merlin prices. Are we comparing like with like, i.e. retail on a reasonable timescale? It's what I keep saying when people say that SMODs are cheap. They're not. If you can go direct to the manufacturer (which you can normally only do in development classes), you can buy a lot of stuff at half the "monopoly marked-up" price. In fact, you can get a round-section carbon mast tubes for just over £300 from China if you're pepared to buy a sensible volume.

While I object to the 'SMOD' markup factor (e.g. RS400 cumulus mast £100 more than Scorpion cumulus mast....), I'm not sure it's the issue here.

I'm sure if someone could make a profit offering carbon dinghy masts that worked well for 3 figure prices, they'd be quite popular with Merlin, Contender and many other classes?

The reality is that retail markup is significant in almost everything we buy. A retailer still has to flog a lot of masts to pay the mortgage.

would the racing in 400's be any better if we had carbon masts? I doubt it.

Have I just bought a Merlin with a carbon mast? YES!!!!

Originally posted by Chris 249 And yes, you can buy carbon tubes from China cheaply - but how cheap is it if you want someone to source them, stock them, store them, warranty them, and promote their use?

Quite. It's so tricky. That's why nobody else sources products from China isn't it.

If you want to really succeed in business, you need to offer an exceptional product at the same price as the "average junk". This unfortunately requires hard work and some capital. The more difficult it is for you to achive, the more difficult it will be for others to follow you.

There are actually a number of companis that specialise in sourcing manufacture from China, arrange the shipping, etc. It's not THAT difficult. Remind me, where are bladerider moths made.

Skiffy et al

In my other role we have developed eldctronic products here and then have them  manufactured them in China and elesewhere prior to selling the systems  systems across Europe and soon we hope into  N.America.   It really can work if the volume is there and other factors are complimentary - but not all the time and not for everything !  So yep I know exactly how to source overseas .. when worth it.

I am very happy to be corrected but there are few suitable elliptical carbon sections anywhere on the planet ... and the required specification we are after and consequently the prices in the market are much higher that you might think.  'Carbon' is not always what you think either, is available in many specifications, and the right specification, not the material, is the critical thing anyway.

On Blaze/Halo the differentiating factor is the leverage offered by those tubular wings.  We pay a lot more to put them on on top of the hull costs because that is what makes the boats go so well.  With Icon - it is wide but without additional wings but the differentiating factor for this particular boat has to be the wing rig.  In carbon ?  Yes as said already IF the figures stack up of course and I've been pointed to one possible source already in the last few hours - but it needs serious  checking -  but otherwise in thin wall high spec alloy.  Do not be deceived into thinking carbon is always clearly superior .... except of course as a marketing ploy.    Much of what you see in the consumer world around you today and may think is 'carbon' is inferior or possibly even not carbo at all !

Anyway - we appreciate all the comments and input.  A few more pics form the show ... 






 

Hi Jon

This particular hull does carry weight well and is the same shape as used for the Flight 4.3.  It is also our (very good) starting point and is not necesarily the final configuration that will be used to produce tooling. Note that the NSs only carry just over 9m of sail under their local rules and it is no surprise larger crews migrate elswhere given other local choices.  The larger rig being developed here for Icon coupled to this hull will make it a much more attractive option for many more people.

Icon is effectively a SMOD NS14 derivative with rig and some hull alterations.  As such foils, masts and sails will be one-design.   The mast is taller and we are currently carrying around 11.5m on the development rigs.  The centreboard switch from dagger, although it will impact on performance to a degree, is to broaden its appeal and improve simplicity of use as we sail in many estuary and gravel pit locations here.  The full length NS dagger is a particularly long one, significantly longer than say the Tasar one.  We agree with you about 'T' foils but it is/was always worth talking through all the options with potential owners - they have already rejected it.

Individual layout, sheeting systems etc beyond the core will be relatively open so for example if an individual really wants centremain over the displayed  'stern sheet and off boom' sheeting no problem.  We will however aim to keep things getting too complex.

The mast choice is not set yet and the debate continues -  thin wall alloy v carbon.  Either way we have  not yet identified a suitable UK source for either of these types.  If absolutely necessary we will even consider building ourselves but would prefer to work with an external supplier here or overseas  (so anyone out there want to make carbon wing sections in the UK - please step forward !).  Development work will continue for now in alloy as we have sections already.  You might also know in Oz the alloy ones are still widely used and appear to be fully competitive but customers (only those with cheque books to hand mind you) can always influence the specification.  Supplier changes should not be an issue,if ever needed, and would of course be supplying to a set specification. 

The SMOD model is often questioned on this and other forums but we do believe it can net a very cost-effective and simple performer that has broad appeal.  We are lucky in the UK to have a options - and choice is good.  SMOD / One-design / Development. 

Rules ?  Agree with you there.  We now have a 'Icon steering group' forming of potential owners and  they will have a lot of say about the rules content and their  application.  There are some good models around already that could be adapted with them.

Mike L.