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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 24 Mar 15 at 7:38pm
Maybe a National Champs should only be called that if over 1/2 the counties are represented?!
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 15 at 10:05pm
Who cares? Everyone who knows, knows a noddy class from one that means a damn....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 15 at 10:59pm
It's all a side show from the main point. Dinghy racing is in decline. It is denied by many, but handicap racing is popular. Unlike class racing it has no voice. It is disorganised. Could the disorganisation and the decline be linked? Shoud something change if we want to halt the decline?

Do we want the freedom to sail whatever we want? Yes. Has this led to small fleets of numerous classes? Yes. Are you prepared to compromise your choice for a larger fleet? No. So, Graeme's idea of ditching the traditional class structure and lumping them together in Super Classes has merit. Bigger fleets whilst maintains choice. A bit like choosing whether you want an Exocet or Ninja Moth. Different designs, but they race together.

I suspect the RYA is not the body to oversee this. A new DRAGB would be far more focussed and enthusiastic.
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 15 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by Peaky

It's all a side show from the main point. Dinghy racing is in decline. It is denied by many, but handicap racing is popular. Unlike class racing it has no voice. It is disorganised. Could the disorganisation and the decline be linked? Shoud something change if we want to halt the decline?

Do we want the freedom to sail whatever we want? Yes. Has this led to small fleets of numerous classes? Yes. Are you prepared to compromise your choice for a larger fleet? No. So, Graeme's idea of ditching the traditional class structure and lumping them together in Super Classes has merit. Bigger fleets whilst maintains choice. A bit like choosing whether you want an Exocet or Ninja Moth. Different designs, but they race together.

I suspect the RYA is not the body to oversee this. A new DRAGB would be far more focussed and enthusiastic.

Ah forum lala land again!  There are so many logic jumps in that first para I don't know where to start.

So instead let's look at what happens in Utopia when DRAGB starts up with its 'banded' Super Classes, racing level.  

At first lots of classes gather together and there's some fun racing with a social side helped by lots of entires (All that assumes that they can find a Club to host them - because running mixed class fleets is always harder than one design).  

But by the end of season two (because these are competitive people that travel to race) there is a distinct performance trend indicated by the results and in season three the band starts to concentrate on two or three classes.  

And in season three results this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where the fast sailors concentrate in a numerically stronger class, who are getting 'better' racing within the big fleet.  Some of the smaller classes stop attending having been marginalised.  

By season 4 it looks a lot like class racing today albeit concentrated in less classes.  Whether that is a good thing is a separate discussion.

It also in a way looks like what happened with the concentration of sailors into particular variants of local designs when mobility (widely owned cars) allowed them to race together (some pitched to become National Classes), or indeed what tends to happen in the Restricted and Development Classes between major game changing designs.


Edited by sargesail - 24 Mar 15 at 11:29pm
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 15 at 11:48pm
I realise that the term 'Noddy Classes' is meant to be controversial but.......small classes do exist. The support for them can be just as enthusiastic as the bigger classes. With big Nationals fleets the good guys are at the front the average in the middle and the poor at the back. Just the same in small fleets only less boats. Anyone who is a member of a Class Association can have a go...'If there' ard' enuff.

We could all just sail Lasers...but where's the fun in that?
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 15 at 1:19am
Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by Peaky

It's all a side show from the main point. Dinghy racing is in decline. It is denied by many, but handicap racing is popular. Unlike class racing it has no voice. It is disorganised. Could the disorganisation and the decline be linked? Shoud something change if we want to halt the decline?

Do we want the freedom to sail whatever we want? Yes. Has this led to small fleets of numerous classes? Yes. Are you prepared to compromise your choice for a larger fleet? No. So, Graeme's idea of ditching the traditional class structure and lumping them together in Super Classes has merit. Bigger fleets whilst maintains choice. A bit like choosing whether you want an Exocet or Ninja Moth. Different designs, but they race together.

I suspect the RYA is not the body to oversee this. A new DRAGB would be far more focussed and enthusiastic.

Ah forum lala land again!  There are so many logic jumps in that first para I don't know where to start.

So instead let's look at what happens in Utopia when DRAGB starts up with its 'banded' Super Classes, racing level.  

At first lots of classes gather together and there's some fun racing with a social side helped by lots of entires (All that assumes that they can find a Club to host them - because running mixed class fleets is always harder than one design).  

Most clubs run handicap racing anyway so this is an extension to that which is practice week in week out, unlike one design racing where lots have to run a special event alongside or instead of regular racing requiring different skills to the well ingrained muscle memory of handicap.

But by the end of season two (because these are competitive people that travel to race) there is a distinct performance trend indicated by the results and in season three the band starts to concentrate on two or three classes.  

If they adjust then this should be negated, although some people still may move with the herd and adopt themsleves into the popular class for a perceived better result, more on that shortly.....

And in season three results this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy where the fast sailors concentrate in a numerically stronger class, who are getting 'better' racing within the big fleet.  Some of the smaller classes stop attending having been marginalised.  

....A short while later they may get better racing within the fleet but inevitably they are being. Dragged backwards by the one design nature of class racing to protect ones position within that fleet, and not dragged forwards by improved cooperation.

By season 4 it looks a lot like class racing today albeit concentrated in less classes.  Whether that is a good thing is a separate discussion.

Absolutely it could all turn to class racing, in fact that could be a good outcome surely? Everyone in the same class no matter that the boat doesn't suit the individual, but the racing is fairer? Oh wait then comes the decline from those who thought they were better off in one design and now are back to playing golf on handicap due to sailing no longer being fun and social with a bunch of mates and is now all about who has new sails or some other go faster one design gadget that wasn't made for the boat originally.

It also in a way looks like what happened with the concentration of sailors into particular variants of local designs when mobility (widely owned cars) allowed them to race together (some pitched to become National Classes), or indeed what tends to happen in the Restricted and Development Classes between major game changing designs.



Edited by Oli - 25 Mar 15 at 1:22am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 15 at 8:01am
Most wouldn't swap classes to race the faster boat in the group, they would simply stop attending. Numbers would decline, it would fail to get critical mass and fizzle out.

Could it be that dinghy sailing will decline to a level smaller than now because of external forces? Nothing to do with sailing itself? Yes, we can encourage people to sail, but do you really think that big handicap or group opens really would get new people involved? I don't.

We need to make sailing seem like a fun thing to do. Suggest racing, but don't make it sound like it is that or nothing. Maybe the idea of sportif, or raids to the coast when the forecast is good, would be the internet way of doing things?
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 15 at 9:03am
that is of course the other and much sadder outcome Rupert, just wanted to highlight another version of events.

what is needed and we are all speculating about here is what people actually want out of the sport.  there are lots of options and changing certain aspects maybe more detrimental, after all our sport encompasses a far greater range of activities within it than many others so perhaps we should shouldn't reinvent the wheel across the board, but certainly some areas and clubs may find a different format positive.
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 15 at 9:25am
The way opponents to this argue is as if it is an either or outcome. Class racing isn't going to go away, what might go away is the incongruities of boat designation by the destination or skill level of a group of people who happen to submit 'returns' to a bunch of old buffers who don't know how to work a computer properly and haven't sailed anything other than some old clinker built hulk on puddlesham pond since 1957. Wink

Events could offer group or band racing with inevitable movement up and down groups or leagues if you will.
If we were smart, we could make it strict Pro Am, with 'scratch' handicapping to those loft jocks everyone knows and loves.
There are any number of angles that a group of folk actually still enthusiastic about their sport could apply to make things more interesting.
And yes there could be beer and yes we could even have pie eaters back into the fold instead of forcing them into the wilderness because some people don't like being showered with cow pie as they are beaten. Wink


Edited by Woodburner - 25 Mar 15 at 9:27am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 15 at 9:33am
Originally posted by Rupert

One year I'll do the Birkett, probably when the kids have left home, the way it is going.

Chris, I understand that cycling has recognized disciplines and the like - it was just the "One National Champion" I was referring to in that post. I could as easily have used athletics. Is dinghy sailing like the long jump, say, and sailing as a whole like athletics - so dinghies the long jump, yachts the shot put, windsurfing the 400m, or is each dinghy like an athletics event?

If the former, then we don't have a champ. If the latter, then we have a champ for each disipline, just like athletics does.

Anyway, not sure why I'm arguing against the oddity of National Champions. For me, being Class Champion is far more sensible. Just takes a change of a word and a huge change in mind set. National Champions would then come from a revamped National Classes list and from the International classes, if they have a big enough showing in the UK. Or maybe simply from classes that have a 5 year rolling average of 50+ at the Nationals.

So, I am Minisail Class Champion, not Minisail National Champion, which clearly gives far too much kudos to such a small event.

The Y&Y tables would need to be split, of course. In fact, I could see Y&Y being the leader in this change of outlook. Events would need to brand themselves Class Championships, not National, and it would take some Y&Y editing of events publicity to make this happen!


Ok, gotcha. 

IMHO each sailing class can't be the equivalent of a discipline or event in other sports, because there are too many sailing classes.  There would seem to be about 7 times as many sailing classes as cycling events, to use one roughly comparable sport, and that's counting each track event separately.

Completely agree with the rest of your post; a rolling average makes sense, and it IS a funny feeling to get a "nationals" trophy from a small class.

Years ago Y&Y used to run an annual listing of the classes with a rolling average of 50 competitors, as you'd probably know.
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