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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cirrus Icon Development
    Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 2:09pm
We are listening ...... but with respect the issue with  'design by forum'  is that you end up with a fantastic boat ..... for the forumites some of which will be sailing much more exotic craft anyway.  We want you to TRY the boat as quickly as we can get things sorted and will invite a good number  along within a few weeks..  It is very easy to over-specify on any forum and to, even worse, over canvas and take things beyond the original intentions !   Any views are interesting to us though and devils advocacy - both ways - is  valued.   We do have a 'Icon steering group' being established that is and will be giving us feedback, who will get to try the boats first on the water, and are providing additional comment out of the direct glare of the forum.  We will however keep this forum posted as things develop.

The cost issue is always a factor and we are determned to deliver Icon quickly and at a very attractive price, particularly for the pioneers who put down deposits early - if it can be done in carbon of course it will be done.  Note though that the rig is already different to a standard NS one and would not measure as 'NS'  ...

'Luddites' ?  maybe but they will be rather fast ones GRF !

Mike L.

PS - The current development alloy one has very very little in common with the Tasar mast anyway if there ever was - it is not 'square back' and is fully elliptical.  That square back must weight getting on for twice as much and is intended for a very different sail setup  Today it is sails that do much more of the flexing and work together with mast flex - sails are designed to be much more 'active'.   You just have to try .... soon.
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 4:14pm

Regardless of the pros & cons of ali v carbon people will always desire the carbon mast even if you can create a logical argument supported with facts that the ali is superior.

Perception & desire are much more powerful drivers than the facts. Just look some recent threads on here  some people will fawn over a boat that dosn't exist and they have never even sailed.

If you want the boat to sell give it a carbon mast even if it costs a bit more.
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Regardless of the pros & cons of ali v carbon people will always desire the carbon mast even if you can create a logical argument supported with facts that the ali is superior.

Perception & desire are much more powerful drivers than the facts. Just look some recent threads on here  some people will fawn over a boat that dosn't exist and they have never even sailed.

If you want the boat to sell give it a carbon mast even if it costs a bit more.



+1

there's really no good reason to launch a new boat in 20xx without a composite spar, if you need to shave cost in the overall package price then go for lower cost build options like dagger boards (rudder & centre), tracked adjustable shrouds, simpler tensioning systems, non-laminate sails etc....if you want finger tip adjustment of everything then buy a N12, MR or i14, I prefer to go sailing with my head out of the boat thanks....I'm certain some innovative thinking could be applied to road/combi trailers and covers to reduce prices over what is currently on offer as well
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 6:39pm

I'm surprised a carbon mast can be as cheap as £675+VAT. That seems good value compared to RS and Merlin prices. Are we comparing like with like, i.e. retail on a reasonable timescale?

One thing to consider is insurance, a carbon mast probably bumps up the premium. Rightly or wrongly.

I think we on here are not really the target market, you need to understand who is going to sail the boat, with whom and why. I can see a two sail boat being popular with blokes who have 'less committed' family members as crews, probably best to canvass a few of those rather than the technophiles on here?

Maybe these people will have been sailing particular boats up to now (N12's, Ent's, Firefly????) so maybe the point is to make the transition to the new class as easy as possible? i.e. a similar style of sailing rather than having to re-learn from scratch.

Whatver make a new class take off, I don't know, but it certainly isn't me, I personally buy boats with the idea of joining a like-minded bunch of people to race against them, so I'm not really an early adopter! As they say, only opinions with chequebooks open count!

 
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mongrel View Drop Down
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Posts: 304 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 6:44pm

You can repair a carbon spar, you have to replace alloy ones.

Also, a carbon mast will bend a lot more before it fails than its alloy equivalent.



Edited by mongrel
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timnoyce View Drop Down
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Posts: 1991 		Post Options Post Options   Quote timnoyce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 7:13pm
Or just annodise the ally spars black! When we* started supplying black masts on the Supernova at Hartleys people just assumed they were made of carbon!

(*I don't work there any more)
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tickler View Drop Down
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Posts: 895 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 7:23pm
Sticky back carbon vynil is quite convincing.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Regardless of the pros & cons of ali v carbon people will always desire the carbon mast even if you can create a logical argument supported with facts that the ali is superior.

Perception & desire are much more powerful drivers than the facts. Just look some recent threads on here  some people will fawn over a boat that dosn't exist and they have never even sailed.

If you want the boat to sell give it a carbon mast even if it costs a bit more.

That sums up perfectly why I would go for a carbon mast.

BTW congratulations to Mike.  He put a lot of effort into getting the boat ready for the show and its extremely gratifying to see 'the other mag' recognise the ICON as their joint favourite boat of the show (along with the 100).
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by mongrel

You can repair a carbon spar, you have to replace alloy ones.

On the other hand carbon spars are a lot less tolerant of poor maintenance and quite easy to destroy by doing things like putting rivets in with wrongly drilled holes and the like. A tin mast will be a damn sight safer and cheaper with outsourced budget manufacture. The source cost of the tube might not be very different these days, but the care and skill needed tofit out and rig the tube certainly is.
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Skiffybob View Drop Down
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Posts: 842 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffybob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 10 at 8:46am
Originally posted by RS400atC

I'm surprised a carbon mast can be as cheap as £675+VAT. That seems good value compared to RS and Merlin prices. Are we comparing like with like, i.e. retail on a reasonable timescale?

It's what I keep saying when people say that SMODs are cheap. They're not.

If you can go direct to the manufacturer (which you can normally only do in development classes), you can buy a lot of stuff at half the "monopoly marked-up" price. In fact, you can get a round-section carbon mast tubes for just over £300 from China if you're pepared to buy a sensible volume.
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