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Oli View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Okay, I've taken the pink pill and I've calmed down now  Wink ........

So, is there anybody here who has consciously sold one boat and bought another just because of the PN (and I don't mean to buy a boat that has local class racing)?


yes, almost every blaze sailor ever  Wink
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Do Different

For the life of me I can never understand the intensity of these PY debates.
It obvious that any form of handicapping will always have flaws when related to specific situations, unless mired in endless variables it can only ever be about averages.
It is the contradiction of emotions that confuses me; if you really care so much about precise results and absolute comparative performance then why not put that amount of energy into making class racing happen for yourself? 
edited @ 7.11 for typos & clarity.

spot on!
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Okay, I've taken the pink pill and I've calmed down now  Wink ........

So, is there anybody here who has consciously sold one boat and bought another just because of the PN (and I don't mean to buy a boat that has local class racing)?


yes, almost every blaze sailor ever  Wink

LOL
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by transient

Originally posted by Do Different

Transient. Of course you are correct, slower boats are always disadvantaged in tidal conditions (it is simply maths and can be proven) , I know I've done ten years at a coastal Club in the past in a slower and quicker boat. 

The point is, you have identified a clear and accepted issue at the extreme end of the speed range, change the number to reflect your circumstances.



I have been vocal at the club in suggesting we adjust locally over several years. The sailing com and sailing sec are just not interested. Local adjustment just isn't going to happen for our club. A fairly typical scenario me thinks.

You and many others do accept the issue but there are others who don't either understand it or don't want to rock the boat. The PY system is a fundamentaly important issue and it needs improving drastically quite soon IMO.

It's alright for Simon to post us " the technology exists to produce more granular and context sensitive handicaps"

what the hell does that actually mean?......nothing in  real terms. They've been talking about this for several years if memory serves. It sounds like they haven't gotten past the talking stage yet

For most youngsters learning to sail there is no other option other than starting to race in the club handicaps. As adults face more time and resource pressures handicap racing becomes more and more important to the sport.....do the RYA see it that way though? They may do or they may not do, who the hell knows?

The system does need improving, from the top down, the rya should, i believe, offer a "this is the only way to adjust locally" method to the clubs, that way all clubs are using the same system, the sail secs who are too afraid of fleet back lash can pass the buck on, eventually the new status quo will level out and all will be fine with the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

 
What I am talking about is deriving handicaps based on the conditions for each race eg wind,  water type,  tide, sea state, course configuration etc.  so each class would have a dynamic handicap within a given range.

We have 4 years + GPS data across several thousand races,  with leg times and speeds for 100+ classes.  The next stage is to start processing all this data in a handicapping context

Really? For tide??

At the point the Feva can't get around the course because their VMG over water is less than current speed they will stop to me move forward over ground. Their handicap will be infinite. How do you fix that? 

Even in a 1 knot tide, you're talking PY adjustments of 100's to be competitive with a 49er when wind speed is below ~8 knots. 
In a 3 knot tide your talking adjustments of 1000's of points below 8 knots to get them back on terms and a change of 100's between 10-20 knots of breeze. 

Unfortunately those feva's retiring after 2 hours don't get including in the PY returns as they don't get a result. 

And that's not taking in to account:
  • different boats VMG on other points of sail and whether it scales with handicap
  • different boats VMG in different winds and whether it scales with handicap
  • tidal variation across the course
  • tidal variation over time
  • wind variation across the course
  • wind variation over time
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by transient

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey


What I am talking about is deriving handicaps based on the conditions for each race eg wind,  water type,  tide, sea state, course configuration etc.  so each class would have a dynamic handicap within a given range.

We have 4 years + GPS data across several thousand races,  with leg times and speeds for 100+ classes.  The next stage is to start processing all this data in a handicapping context



Thanks for that Simon.

Is this still at the feasibility study stage or is there a firm commitment to make this happen. If it is going to happen any idea of schedule.

I appreciate that these might be tricky questions to answer.



Work has started on the data and updates to the systems to handle a more granular leg by leg approach.  The next stage will be to run the algorithm against existing races,  then do real testing at handicap events.  I am sure there will be many iterations along the way.  
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 1:57pm
It's long overdue to not even try and work a system that matches a 49er to a Feva.

It should have been Banded long ago.

When did anyone ever get in their single hander and check out a 49er and think right I've got to go some to nail them?
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 1:57pm
Sometimes the slow boats are great in tide! I can think of Glynn Charles races, where the mirrors smash it!!
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

 
What I am talking about is deriving handicaps based on the conditions for each race eg wind,  water type,  tide, sea state, course configuration etc.  so each class would have a dynamic handicap within a given range.

We have 4 years + GPS data across several thousand races,  with leg times and speeds for 100+ classes.  The next stage is to start processing all this data in a handicapping context

Really? For tide??

At the point the Feva can't get around the course because their VMG over water is less than current speed they will stop to me move forward over ground. Their handicap will be infinite. How do you fix that? 

Even in a 1 knot tide, you're talking PY adjustments of 100's to be competitive with a 49er when wind speed is below ~8 knots. 
In a 3 knot tide your talking adjustments of 1000's of points below 8 knots to get them back on terms and a change of 100's between 10-20 knots of breeze. 

Unfortunately those feva's retiring after 2 hours don't get including in the PY returns as they don't get a result. 

And that's not taking in to account:
  • different boats VMG on other points of sail and whether it scales with handicap
  • different boats VMG in different winds and whether it scales with handicap
  • tidal variation across the course
  • tidal variation over time
  • wind variation across the course
  • wind variation over time






Exactly.
Even in a relatively sane PY race, the number shifts needed to account for conditions are huge.
Even without tide, simply setting the course can alter the performance of an RS400 against our sym kite competitors by very big margins.
Let's say we are about equal on a w/l course, the 400 sails 30% further down wind but does it 30% faster.
Make the course a triangle, if we can carry our kite, we're 30% faster, but don't sail any extra distance.
Our 1 point 'direct debit' pales into insignificance.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 17 at 2:03pm
[QUOTE=Fatboi]Sometime
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