New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: PY Numbers (again)
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

PY Numbers (again)
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1314151617 20>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY Numbers (again)
    Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Peaky

I disagree Jim.  Most people accept that the standard Phanotm PY is very generous.  


Well no, patently most club handicappers accept nothing of the sort, otherwise the number would have changed. How hard is this to understand? For the number to stay reasonably constant the average handicap awarded by clubs must also be reasonably constant, and the calculation is based on the number of boats and races completed.

I believe its possible for clubs who participate in the scheme to ask the RYA for more details of the returns for individual classes.



Edited by JimC
Back to Top
Late starter View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 24 Feb 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Peaky

I disagree Jim.  Most people accept that the standard Phanotm PY is very generous.  


Well no, patently most club handicappers accept nothing of the sort, otherwise the number would have changed. How hard is this to understand? For the number to stay reasonably constant the average handicap awarded by clubs must also be reasonably constant, and the calculation is based on the number of boats and races completed.


Well yes, suggest you read the thread!
Back to Top
asterix View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 01 Aug 09
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 6:40pm

Originally posted by Late starter

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Peaky

I disagree Jim.  Most people accept that the standard Phanotm PY is very generous.  


Well no, patently most club handicappers accept nothing of the sort, otherwise the number would have changed. How hard is this to understand? For the number to stay reasonably constant the average handicap awarded by clubs must also be reasonably constant, and the calculation is based on the number of boats and races completed.


Well yes, suggest you read the thread!

 I am not pushing any agenda for or against the Phantom, but the bit in blue above is not necessarily correct.  The PY number may not have changed because of a lack of enough retrun data.  Just becasue the number hasn't changed doesn't necessarily mean that the the PY isn't too generous (or too harsh). 
Back to Top
Paramedic View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 27 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 6:46pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Peaky

I disagree Jim.  Most people accept that the standard Phanotm PY is very generous.  


Well no, patently most club handicappers accept nothing of the sort, otherwise the number would have changed. How hard is this to understand? For the number to stay reasonably constant the average handicap awarded by clubs must also be reasonably constant, and the calculation is based on the number of boats and races completed.

I believe its possible for clubs who participate in the scheme to ask the RYA for more details of the returns for individual classes.

Then why are loads of clubs with modern Phantoms reducing the PN? Simple, there are not many of them to begin with and far more old ones than there are new. The new boats are sailed on the circuit and large handicap events, while the older ones have retired to club racing.

Where do the PY returns come from? Mainly club racing, which is why the official handicap is so slow to change. I submit that it's very obvious trhat there is a problem with the PY of a modern Phantom. However the evidence used to calculate PYs isn't picking this up because there are not enough new ones club sailing to skew the figures.

Clubs will continue to cut the PY of Phantoms if they sail modern boats. At my club we have two yardsticks. I know of at least 5 other clubs that sail them off between 980(!!) and 1030. I think a realistic number is about 1020.
Back to Top
Merlinboy View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Jul 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 7:09pm

Problem is Jim, clubs are scared to alter the Py for a backlash from the sailors, they are in a no win situation.  All they can do is keep sending in the returns. 

We tend to have a standing joke, that the real position you came is 1st, 2nd or 3rd after the phantoms eg, forget the Phantoms results.  This is really sad, the Phantom is a lovely boat with a great bunch of sailors.  It also now attracts some top quality sailors, trouble is when they do well at the Handicap events the victory is dampened as people will always think its because of the Handicap (even if this is not the case)
Back to Top
Simon Childs View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 23 Jan 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Childs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 7:24pm

I am not anything to do with the Class Association - to be clear ! 

This thread re-started following the Grafham Grand Prix Single hander hander only results, let see how the results follow on joint fleets basis at Rutland and Bloody Mary especially if there is any breeze. We sail off 1030 at Northampton for Phantom X, I cant believe there is insufficient info around. The problem is surely the conditions and venue - ie trapeze boat, foiler, pond or open water etc. Having personally won the Grand Prix on countback from the Blaze last time, and being stuffed at the Tiger last time I did it, and being not near the front at Glyn Charles, the conditions and venue are a mega - factor. 
Back to Top
Paramedic View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 27 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Simon Childs

I am not anything to do with the Class Association - to be clear ! 

This thread re-started following the Grafham Grand Prix Single hander hander only results, let see how the results follow on joint fleets basis at Rutland and Bloody Mary especially if there is any breeze. We sail off 1030 at Northampton for Phantom X, I cant believe there is insufficient info around. The problem is surely the conditions and venue - ie trapeze boat, foiler, pond or open water etc. Having personally won the Grand Prix on countback from the Blaze last time, and being stuffed at the Tiger last time I did it, and being not near the front at Glyn Charles, the conditions and venue are a mega - factor. 

Thats 7 clubs between 980 and 1030 ;)

It's not lack of information as such, but there are proportionally many more older boats sailing. Say, you have a fleet of 10 boats with 2 modern ones. The performance indicator for the class return is going to be hopelessly skewed by the 8 older ones, and this is why numbers only drop in 2s or 3s normally.

The best way (What we do) is to split the fleet in two, and we find - as you did - a modern boat is worth about 2 minuites. Hence I reckon 1015 to 1025 is about right for most waters. I think 980 or 1000 says more about the ability of people in other classes than it does about Phantom development, and i don't beleive in altering PYs to suit crew skill. This is why we have personal handicaps.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

[QUOTE=JimC] [QUOTE=Peaky] 980(!!) and 1030.
I think a realistic number is about 1020.



980 would be 67 point difference? So what. I've done club races where if
they reduced my py from it's official 1162 down to 1040, I still would
have won. That's a 122 point drop.

I'm with the JIMC school of thought on this one purely based on data that
Medway Maniac came out with.
To explain, medway maniac organizes a personal handicapped pursuit
race at wilsonian. He estimated that the better sailors could be capped as
much as 20% in order to be more level with other club racers. He kept all
the calculations very black box, so no one knew how much that had been
helped/penalised. As far as I'm aware, both myself in a Laser 4000 and
another in a Contender got his full time penalty and still we both took 1st
and second.

I'm sure It was JIMC who said the difference between the back of the fleet
and the front of the fleet in any given class could be as much as 200
points at a championship.

Py's could always be more accurate but as soon as they become more
accurate for one level of sailor, they become very much less accurate for
another level of sailor.

If you're honestly saying that EVERY SINGLE PHANTOM SAILOR in the
country is taking up the top spots at club racing and none of them are
getting mediocre results or even posting last places, then please show me
the evidence and I'll personally write to the RYA.

Right, I'm off to a fancy meal and some drinking :-)
Back to Top
Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 05 Feb 09
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 298 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 8:49pm
I hesitate to enter the fray here, as I have no particular axe to grind. But I thought I'd point out that:

1) Handicap racing will always be flawed by imperfect handicaps. It's just not possible to come up with perfect
figures for all classes over all windstrengths.

2) Having said that though, if you want to take it seriously you have to get the handicaps as right as possible. And
if you have a class which has a clear cut division such as the old/new Phantoms, then you must have different
handicap numbers for the 2 chunks. The Flying Fifteen CA came up with a different number for their 'classic' fleet,
so it can't be that difficult.

3) If you have sufficient numbers of slow boats in your class (whether badly sailed or of ancient design) then the
fast (well sailed/well designed) boats will get an advantageous handicap. And the guys in other classes will call
them bandits, because they only notice that a Whizzbang 2000 won the race, they don't notice that another Whizzbang
2000 came in last.

Happy New Year
Fireball 14778 - 'Cruel and Unusual'
Draycote Water, fantastic !
Back to Top
Xpletive View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 28 Jan 06
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 320 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Xpletive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 09 at 9:22pm
I find that the principal behind Handicap Racing is easier to accept than is the concept of awarding prizes to people who may be in the boat which just happens to have been the most suitable on the particular day of an event............
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1314151617 20>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy