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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Multi-rig racing
    Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 10:59am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by ex laser

Think you've missed the point James.

damn right I have....

some folks think its unfair that someone chooses between classes/boats depending on the weather.

I agree, to a level anyway, and from a series points POV think they should be scored as separate entries.  I don't think a Radial has any place on a Laser class racing results card.  However if they want to sail together for the craic and then extract the individual class results, then I can see the logic of keeping the programmes aligned.

In terms of handicap racing, I don't think a punitive handicap need apply, what's the point?  Should the occasional Solo sailor be given a harsher handicap just because his regular Merlin crew is off on holiday with their family... oh do cock off. 

I wouldn't go so far as to bring affluence into the equation on this thread, I don't see its relevance.   

Frankly I'm not sure I know, nor really care, how affluent many people are at my sailing club.  I certainly wouldn't judge it by how much they choose to spend on a boat, or dare I say, 'boats' plural.  

Even the most expensive dinghy in the dinghy park could be bought with a modest monthly repayment plan - it would barely be noticeable on an equity-out deal on a 30 year mortgage, and that's money you neither earned, nor were gifted.... it's just social economics to be paid for by our grand-kids down the line.  Unless you're in negative equity, in which case, sorry mate, but what dinghy Minted Mike has is the least of your worries chum.

Who gives a sh*t really?  That's a problem with society- every one is so quick to judge each other...





 
And you're judging people just as quickly....so quickly, in fact, that you appear to completely ignore the fact that there are two sides to the discussion.

Sure, if someone can't find a crew one day then it's reasonable if they can sail another boat just for the lols. However, that completely ignores the fact that if you have a highly competitive class of reasonably high standard, then victory is likely to go to the person who buys an extra rig of a different class if that is allowed.

Not everyone can afford to throw an extra bunch of bucks on a mortgage. I've had good mates who were not in the position to spend enough on getting an extra rig....I suppose they are simply Not Quite Your Class and therefore should go away and do whatever sport the poor people do? Personally, I don't want to see people discouraged merely because they are tradesmen or have a big family or mortgage....I thought that attitude went out of dinghy racing around the time it started to explode in popularity.

Not only that, but given that surveys have shown that expense and perceived expense are a major problem for the sport, how can increasing the expense of currently cheap classes be justified? Cost of a major PR problem for the sport so why make it worse?

So in answer to the question "who gives a sh*t"; well some of us DO give a sh*t, because we love the sport and we want to see it prosper, and we love to see it when people can get into the sport and find such joy in it. Adding further expense may well be a barrier to both of those.

And by the way, if you think that the most expensive dinghies can always be bought with a simple additional bit of mortgage, you don't know how much a complex multi-rig boat can cost. I've sailed on one that cost (inflation adjusted) 50% of the price of the average UK house to build and run for a season.  Sure, that was extreme, but it shows how far these things are relative, and how far expense can get out of kilter with reality.



Edited by Chris 249 - 11 Mar 15 at 11:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:11am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by turnturtle

Joe needs to grow up then.... And join the real world.


 
If that's the real world you live in then it's lucky some of us have found a different one.


Jeez, I thought Stalinism was dead... I guess I got over the fact that some kids had nicer cricket bats than me back at school. I was just pleased to own one of my own and not have to use the school ones from the 70's with string for grip....

Perhaps anyone driving a (posh w**ker) German car should have a lower handicap too.... After all the relative splenadour in which they rock up at the sailing club must count for something right? Heated seats warming their percher up, cup holder for a caffeine drink... Cheating b**tards....



I've been following this thread on and off...........I have now lost all understanding.

With all due respect, what the hell are you on about TT?

Oh, and as for tired old cliches like "The real world".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:25am
simples.... in life, some people have more than others.  Or that is how things in life get perceived.

If a guy 'gives up sailing' the boat he loves because someone else in the boat park has two boats, two rigs, a nicer car or whatever other trappings of modern life that seem in someway 'unfair', then really, he needs to get over it, or find a way to get another boat if it's that much of an issue.

If the club is facilitating a series system which enables boat / class / rig switching by transferring points by sailor and you really don't like it, then find another club.  I wouldn't like it if it were happening, but doubt it would be a deal breaker for me either.  

As stated, if person A switches from a Rooster 8.1 to a Radial then imho, it's exactly the same as Person B switching from a Phantom to a Contender.  Different class - different entry in the series. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:25am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by turnturtle

Joe needs to grow up then.... And join the real world.


 
If that's the real world you live in then it's lucky some of us have found a different one.


Jeez, I thought Stalinism was dead... I guess I got over the fact that some kids had nicer cricket bats than me back at school. I was just pleased to own one of my own and not have to use the school ones from the 70's with string for grip....

Perhaps anyone driving a (posh w**ker) German car should have a lower handicap too.... After all the relative splenadour in which they rock up at the sailing club must count for something right? Heated seats warming their percher up, cup holder for a caffeine drink... Cheating b**tards....

I think you'd find that anyone taking the series that seriously would only switch in extreme circumstances anyway thus chalking it up to a discard.

I do not think sailor points should carry between classes personally, and have always viewed series points as something for the more committed and consistent, so I'm anti class switching, (Zeros, aeros and Lasers are not rig switching they are class switching), but I can understand the logic for some clubs who do facilitate this, especially if it means it keeps some double handers in residency.

Are some of you actually saying you'd like a club rule prohibiting multi-boat ownership?

Last time I looked, no one got shot or sent to a gulag for "breaking the rules" of dinghy racing.  

I may take it to the same extreme, and say if you don't mind giving the guy who can buy more rigs an advantage, then why bother about handicaps or classes at all? Why not let those who turn up in the expensive car just sail away in a C Class cat (with multiple rigs, of course) and leave all the proles in their F18s, RS400s and Solos in the cheap seats where they belong?

Much of the point of many of the great dinghy classes is that they allow people to compete on skill, rather than on bank balance; it's much the same in other sports. And in most other sports (and just about every sailing event above club level) you can't change gear in the same way* within an event, so why should you do it without penalty in dinghy sailing?

*that is, you can't use gear from more than one discipline/class/ruleset within a particular event.



Edited by Chris 249 - 11 Mar 15 at 11:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:26am
Rules to remember about tt when discussing anything.

1) He only cares about winning the argument, not what the argument is about.

2) He has a large disposable income.

3) He does not understand the club ethos and the way most clubs are run.


If you hold these rules in your head when discussing things with tt ( especially rule 1) you can have a lot of fun and you will never never know where the thread well go!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:28am
Where's the advantage?  He's DNC'ing from whatever he deems as his primary entry anyway.  

Keep the discards low and it will reduce the frequency of the small percentage of entrants who really are thinking things through that deeply.

As for Solos- someone can buy at £1200 Solo sail from North these days - although you might need a new mast to get the most out of it.  Should that be 'banned' for club racing?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:36am
Originally posted by ex laser

Rules to remember about tt when discussing anything.

1) He only cares about winning the argument, not what the argument is about.

2) He has a large disposable income.

3) He does not understand the club ethos and the way most clubs are run.


If you hold these rules in your head when discussing things with tt ( especially rule 1) you can have a lot of fun and you will never never know where the thread well go!

you have no idea about any of that, you can of course perceive what you want from the very limited information you are privy to, but by no means is anything you've posted there a true picture.   Wink

- I can't actually see where there's an argument either.  If asked to 'vote' (yes, clubs vote I 'get' that... votes are important in clubs as they are not oligarchic structures. I have done my share of running aspects of them in the past, and no doubt will again in the future)

Anyway, I would vote to prevent 'rig switching' or 'class swapping' in the same series....  I believe that my current club would score my entries differently between say my Kona, a D-Z or if I borrowed a 300 for a laugh again.  I hope that would be the case anyway.

And for what it's worth.... I won't be buying the Starship Enterprise rig my D-Z either.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:39am
1200 for a solo sail, is it made of gold!

Once there is a secondhand market the issue disappears. I picked up the other two mast sections for my laser including some old knackered sails for next to nothing. Only used them when it was howling so suited me fine.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:45am
Originally posted by SimonW99

1200 for a solo sail, is it made of gold!

Once there is a secondhand market the issue disappears. I picked up the other two mast sections for my laser including some old knackered sails for next to nothing. Only used them when it was howling so suited me fine.




Or until people like Rooster and Maldon Sailboats and co decide to start making 'training sails' and 'training spars' but that is another argument completely......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 15 at 11:49am
Originally posted by SimonW99

1200 for a solo sail, is it made of gold!

nope- made with 'intangible' benefits like running a innovative sail loft staffed with professional sailors who are paid to offer support (and possibly even coaching and training if you ask nicely). Much of this progressive development then transferring into less popular classes and new products- like both the Zero and Aero which uses the same parent company.  So everyone in sailing can benefit if they choose too.

But it's not a price point for everyone, which is why the Solo is a great class model-  it still allows smaller lofts to get involved and offer cheaper alternatives across the value : performance spectrum.  

I doubt there are too many folks would really call Solo sailing 'chequebook sailing', not in comparison to other single handers out there- it seems a well balanced class at every participation level from what I've seen.  
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