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    Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 5:42pm
I suspect GRP you have a good instinct for making the right tactical choices in tidal venues based on experience but I don't think you have a clue about the vector mathmatics that supports this instinct and as such you are struggling to understand the theory ... and in some cases making it look like you don't have a clue which I suspect is far from the truth ...
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by seamonkey

I suspect GRP you have a good instinct for making the right tactical choices in tidal venues based on experience but I don't think you have a clue about the vector mathmatics that supports this instinct and as such you are struggling to understand the theory ... and in some cases making it look like you don't have a clue which I suspect is far from the truth ...

You can suspect what you like lass, but i can assure you wether by instinct, tactical choice or vector mathematics, the tidal choices I take and am enlightening the dimness of your grey matter with, are based not on theory, rather on donkeys years of practise, every week two or three times a week for thirty five years in a host of situations and now an increasing number of craft. In my own field, sailboards, I will not be challenged on the subject. I will however grant and have admitted here several times over, that different craft with differing rockers and in varying wind speeds will react differently and my knowledge of dinghies is limited.

This is probably your most lucid post and we have even forced Ed to presume to rehash what he's learned here into the semblance of  tide 101 for sailboats in this thread so it hasn't been a total waste of time.

One thing anyone who has any idea or desire to seek self improvement, has to listen to, is anyone with any experience's opinion on the subject, given that sailing is still such a black art with so many variables that make it the wondrous past time that it is, you listen, try, prove or disprove then move on, nothing is absolute.

My world is devoid of compasses, computers or any means other than a wrist watch with which to work out 'vector mathematics' so one relies on building a mental database of experience, from sailing in close one design fleets against fellows of known ability, upon which the instinct of what to do and when to do it is built. We have the benefit of sailing fast shallow angles and slow high angles on the same craft, those crafts react exactly the same as some dinghies in similar circumstances, so wether y'all like it or not, we are perhaps in a better position to comment.

Sailing in big boats with GPS and computed VMG's is fine, but i know time and again, put a 'seat of the pants' raced trained windsurfer in close proximity of the skipper and you'll see vast improvements in that boats performance, computers or not, we're simply that much more tide and wind aware.

So eat your heart out girl, you're in the presence of greatness and lucky it's communicating with you, now be a nice monkey and go and sit in the corner put on that conical hat with the D on it and we'll call you if we need cheering up with a comedy turn, thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 7:55pm
He's right seamonkey... he is great! Check out his results from the 2010 RS100 nationals in a nice tidal Poole harbour!  LOL Sadly I only got to see his awesome tactical prowess twice every race, once at the start, and once when i lapped him!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 8:03pm
Sea monkey knows that, she was there.

You were lucky it was windy, had the weather been light and that boat hadn't bust it would have been a different tale.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 8:18pm
Wouldnt say I was lucky it was windy! I had only had the boat for a week so that was the most wind i had sailed it in!  I also had a gear failure on the second day so missed 3 races of the 6 race series which didnt help!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 8:21pm
GRF:  The books have been written eg Proctor Wind, Tide and Currents.  But so were the science texts that said the earth was flat.  We've moved on.  I and many others here have never argued with your view that it is impossible to exploit angle to the tide to gain a tactical advantage - when the tide varies.  But you have repeatedly made a flat earth assertion about relative performance with the tide on the weather or lee bow - based, like the flat earthers, on your observations alone.  So come on humour us - try and explain why you think it works that way.  Cos this was a great thread but it's on the edge of getting boring.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 9:35pm
Try and explain why what works what way? I don't quite get what you're asking here?

Why a boat goes faster over the water with a better VMG on the tack with the tide on the lee bow/side and vice versa?

Or when to take advantage?

Didn't we do this already?

Or are you asking for a mathematical explanation?

As to moving on, how the hell can you say you've moved on when half the world is still sailing in the same boats designed by the likes of Proctor and his peers, so if it was true then, it's equally true now.

I don't see anything has changed. I see a few higher speed flat rockered assym boats about, but none that in certain conditions don't have to obey tidal rules if they want to sail the shortest route round the cans.

The only thing I can see that may or may not have moved on, is still sitting unfinished in the boat builders in Romsey, it may or may not plane fast enough upwind not to have to worry too much about tidal interference, but I doubt it. Tide on the weather bow will still keep it off the plane if the sums add up.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 9:51pm
There are lots of books on the subject here

I reckon everything y'all need to know is in there, if you want it bad enough, you read everything, just a shame eejiot match racing t**sers feel the need to rubbish the works of good men in the quest for notoriety and or profit. 

Match racing is another whole other ball game, as is team racing, different rules to what for the most part I enjoy which is plain old vanilla round the cans stuff.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 10:42pm
Used the link.  Most of them I pulled of my shelf to see what they said on the subject last week.

Apart from Proctor not one has claimed there is a "magic" effect on the apparent wind when you stick the tide on the lee rather than weather bow.

Now I'll take you back to the start - I was an empirical evidence believer like you.  I'd still like to believe (likeFather Christmas and the Tooth Fairy (and the lottery - it would help if I bought a ticket)).  But I have seen the magic theory comprehensively debunked by the moving carpet theory.  I've been trying to prod, persuade and cajole you into an explanation of why you think the magic happens.  Guess I'm feeling like the six year old who's just realised it's daddy not Santa giving Mummy a kiss.  Especially with that stuff about skiffs and foilers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian29937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 11 at 11:31pm
Yawn
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