New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Simple Racing Rules
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Simple Racing Rules
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1213141516 18>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
PeterG View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 12 Jan 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Simple Racing Rules
    Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 11:40am
But try to use those in the real world and immediately you are going to get problems, and need to add clauses and complexities.

Under rule 3 anyone can gain an overlap to leeward and luff up all the way to the wind. Do we want that?

Under 4 - what is an overtaking boat, and when does it cease to be one? And what happens when it's overtaking to leeward? Which rule takes precedence

Under 5 - when is a boat inside at the mark? And how much is room?

Under 7 - Not sure that provides much protection for club beginners getting shafted by aggressive sailors!

Just a few points from a very short look. But I think they demonstrate rather well why our current rules seem a bit complex and why they need to be. In practice most club sailors make do with an understanding and application of the rules which doesn't differ that much from your list, and most of them will never worry about the fine detail or need to. But those who do sail at higher levels do need the the detail in the rules, and to understand them. Seems to me the system works fairly well as it is.
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
Back to Top
Solo4652 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 08 Apr 15
Location: Stockport
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 71 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 1:04pm
@PeterG

"Under rule 3 anyone can gain an overlap to leeward and luff up all the way to the wind. Do we want that?" Allow it to happen for a while and maybe people will come to realise that luffing somebody to a standstill often means that you're slowing yourself down in the process. The rule as it stands would also discourage a windward boat getting too close to a leeward boat - maybe no bad thing.

"Under 4 - what is an overtaking boat, and when does it cease to be one? And what happens when it's overtaking to leeward? Which rule takes precedence"   Must we define "overtaking"?? You don't see "overtaking" defined on "No overtaking" road signs, do you! If it's overtaking to leeward, then there's no problem because overtaking boat keeps clear and at the same time windward boat keeps clear - double protection against collision!

"Under 5 - when is a boat inside at the mark? And how much is room?" Must we define "inside"?? OK - if we must - you're inside me if I can't get to the mark because you're there. Must we define "room"?? OK - if we must - you've been given enough "room" by somebody if you can get round the mark without hitting them.

"Under 7 - Not sure that provides much protection for club beginners getting shafted by aggressive sailors!" Yes, I fully admit that Rule 7 is a bit of a catch-all mash-up of lots of other rules. However, It might just work, simply because of its very simplicity.

It's interesting that people want to pick these rules apart and define everything. To me, that's a sign of people who have possibly become victims of blinkered "systems thinking", as discussed above. We're back to my plea for not entrapping ourselves in circular word-games.

Do we have to define "boat"? No, not really. Likewise, do we really have to define "overtake", "room", "mark", ? I don't think so. Maybe it's because people think that these have to be defined that we've ended up with so many appendices and subclauses to the current rules.

Oh, and by the way, what do you mean by "define", please? Can you define that term because if not, I'm afraid we can't use it.



Edited by Solo4652 - 15 Aug 15 at 1:26pm
Back to Top
Solo4652 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 08 Apr 15
Location: Stockport
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 71 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 2:21pm
OK - It's maybe time for me to shut up now. We've fairly quickly arrived at the Golden 7 rules. Incidentally, it's interesting that it's 7 - Psychologists have known for years that human beings like information in packets of 7 (+ or - 2) viz; 7 deadly sins, 7 colours of the rainbow, 7 dwarves. It's virtually certain the Golden 7 will need some more work but, at this point, I'll step aside and simply lurk in the background because I feel I have very little more I can contribute. So, over to you guys to knock them about some more, if you want to. For me, key things to bear in mind might be;

New rule-set should fit easily onto one side of a plastic sheet.
Give them to your children to see if they can understand them, not to a lawyer.
Don't feel that everything has to be defined. Indeed, actively avoid doing so in order to keep things simple.
New rules may well change the game. Maybe that's OK with quite a few people.
A fundamental mindshift is probably called-for. Maybe look at the rules from a newcomer's perspective and then apply them to top-end pro racing rather than vice versa. If you want something different, you have to do something different.

Cheers,

Steve

Edited by Solo4652 - 15 Aug 15 at 2:23pm
Back to Top
PeterG View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 12 Jan 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 3:11pm
It's interesting that people want to pick these rules apart and define everything. To me, that's a sign of people who have possibly become victims of blinkered "systems thinking", as discussed above. We're back to my plea for not entrapping ourselves in circular word-games. 

Perhaps you are one who is blinkered? And not able to see that the sort of questions that being raised are the sort that would be raised immediately your simple rules were used in practice.

If you want to set things up so you only worry about the most basic aspects of the rules, and don't try to deal with the issues that will arrive in higher level racing, then you are a position no different from that in which most of club racing takes place. So you would be better off with what we have already, which is not only generally works well, but can also deal with complexity when it arises.

New rule-set should fit easily onto one side of a plastic sheet. 
Give them to your children to see if they can understand them, not to a lawyer. 

And so will a simplified version of Part 2 of the rules. Keep the existing rule numbers, leave most of out the detail of rules 17, 18, 19, 20 and you have something that is all, or more, than a beginning club sailor needs, but it has the enormous advantage of referring directly to the full rule set for those who find the need or interest to go further. 
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
Back to Top
davidyacht View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 15 at 3:26pm
+1
Happily living in the past
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 12:06am
Originally posted by Solo4652

@Chris249 above

Morning Chris.

Overnight, the Golden 8, have become the Golden 7. Here they are, for reference;

•1. Avoid collisions by giving boats enough time and room to avoid hitting things
•2. Port keeps clear of starboard.
•3. Windward keeps clear of leeward
•4. Overtaking boat keeps clear
•5. Hitting marks is OK and the inside boat(s) at a mark is entitled to room to round the mark.
•6. If you have violated a rule, do a tack and a gybe as soon as you safely can.
.7   Behave towards others in the same way you'd want them to behave towards you.

Let's apply these to your scenarios above where a boat is rammed in the stern;

"...boat ahead could have been hit. It could have been minding its own business and been rammed by a faster boat." Faster boat is DSQ'd under rule 4 if it hit the slower boat's stern, and also rule 3, if the faster boat hit the slower boat's windward side

"[a boat] could also have blasted in on port and tacked just in front of a starboard tacker". Port-tack blaster is DSQ'd under rule 1 and rule 2

Maybe we don't have to be so concerned about who's "fault" it was. Just apply the rules. It may be the case that both boats are thrown out under different rules. So be it.

Ahhh, but perhaps what's happening here is that you are being affected by thinking constrained by experience with ISAF rules.  Under COLREGS, for example, there's a high chance that the boat that has been on starboard all the time would get pinged for not slowing down or altering course once the port tacker came within possible collision distance.  That shows one more of the many different possible definitions of "avoiding collisions" - your definition seems to fit the RRS one but what happens when one person's undefined definition collides (metaphorically) with others?

However, it's simply not practical to fit a crowd of racing dinghies into a small area under COLREGS, which shows the issues of rules that try to keep vessels a long way apart.

By the way, if hitting marks is OK, then if I give you "room" at the mark then all I have to allow you is enough room to bang the big steel channel marker with your bow, drive it off to one side, and then rub your gunwales along the barnacles and rust-streaked steel.

After all, you had room to get around, and that's all the rule says.  Sure, you smashed your boat up, but you caused the collision by not being a lap back..... Smile

As noted earlier, there's some interesting examples from the 1800s that shows how simple rules fail to allow for the enormous complexity of possible situations.  And while the RRS are sometimes criticised for being too legalistic, they were largely developed by non-lawyers like Mike Vanderbilt and the King of Greece, IIRC.
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 12:15am
Re 

"7   Behave towards others in the same way you'd want them to behave towards you."

Ok, I get that- but many of us want people to behave differently at different times.  I'd like people to not worry about boat-on-boat stuff early in a race, but if two of us have space I find a tactical boat-on-boat duel late in the race to be lots of fun.

Similarly, early in a series I may not want people to start targeting particular boats to beat in a race, but later in the series that becomes part of a fun game for both sides.

However, I can't expect that people will be able to know how I want to be treated at any particular part of any particular series.  We also know that people "want to be treated" in different ways, but we don't know who wants to be treated in what manner at what time.

In the real world, this would get down to whether Joe should have known that Joanna doesn't feel that slam-dunking is OK when the left is paying and there's a clump of chasers out on their hip, although Joanna does feel that slam dunking is OK if that right hand shift finally arrives and they are left in a clear 1 and 2.  If I "want to be treated" in a different manner seven or eight times in a race, how the hell can anyone know that?  

And to many of us, close tactical racing like this is as much a fascinating and fun part of the game as a bowler trying to outwit a batsman.....oh damn, I really shouldn't mention the C word at a time like this.


Edited by Chris 249 - 17 Aug 15 at 12:17am
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 7:42am
I think we have to assume this is just pub conversation, and not a serious proposal. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you want to convince people you're making a serious proposal then it needs the hard yards put in in providing worked examples of realistic situations, all the rest of it.

If the author diverts all suggestions for doing that work to others then it's pretty clear that actually it is just pub talk.
Back to Top
Presuming Ed View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 26 Feb 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 8:04am
Originally posted by Solo4652


•2. Port keeps clear of starboard.
•5. Hitting marks is OK and the inside boat(s) at a mark is entitled to room to round the mark.

Inside on port at the windward mark. Does starboard have to let me in to round the mark?

What about at a leeward mark?
Back to Top
kneewrecker View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 15 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think we have to assume this is just pub conversation, and not a serious proposal.

you would be correct- it's steeped in futility.  I think most of us can rub along well enough on a club race course with a loose enough understanding of the rules and a strong grasp of fair play and good sportsmanship.

If you step up the level of the arena you compete in, be prepared to sharpen your rules knowledge, and don't necessarily expect the level of fair play and sportsmanship on offer to correlate.    
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1213141516 18>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy