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    Posted: 08 Jun 10 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by Nick Peters

In summary of  key concepts for the defence of
the SMOD:


Scenario 1: Active class associstion providing events,
training, maintaining and upholding class rules. Supportive manufacturer
promoting class at home and internationally, supporting Class
Association, providing boats of equal performance,"keep you on the
water", spares, accessories to one-design spec, repairs, advice, after-
sales. Class and manufacturer work together to solve any problems as
equal stakeholders. Net effect increased demand, boat values, owner
enjoyment, benefit to club and sport in general.


.



Hmmm.....odd, The fireball, merlin, GP14, Ent, solo (I could go on) seems
to have an active class association providing events, training and
upholding class rules. The boat dealers, such as speeds and P&B promote
the classes at home and do what they can abroad and definitely support
the class with masses of sponsership. The solo, GP, ENT, Fireball sailors
are all happy with the performance of their hulls so far as equal
performance. A complete repair service offered from the companies who
sold you the boats and happy to offer any after sales advice and help.
And the class and dealers/manufacturers keep a VERY close relationship
to help do what's best for the class.

I'm happy to be told I'm wrong but what's the difference between the
SMOD world and the open supplier OD. The only difference I can think of
is that potentially there would be more sponsorship available to the open
supplier one design classes because you have more companies effectively
competing to give prizes away to gain that little extra bit of publicity.

I like RS as a company, I like the boats, I like the fleets, the events, the
people, just as I like the various other smod classes I've been in. But
quite frankly the large portion of arguments in favour of just One
manufacturer/Supplier seem to me to be nothing more than propaganda.

Doug
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 10 at 10:50pm
Hmmm, I bought a SMOD for £300 and spent £375 on a new sail recently. But I now have a boat that is competitive against new ones, which is why I bought into that particular class. There are other SMODs where you could spend £300 on a hull and it would be soft as hell and even with a brand new sail would get nowhere at open meeting level. In those situations, needing a new sail, would I go for the class legal one or the cheap version? May as well go for the cheap version. I have a feeling that the RS 400 falls into the 1st catagory, but in 10 or more years there will certainly be old, soft, found in the bushes hulls around. To get them sailing, an immitation sail would be better than burning the boat, surely, even for RS?
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Posts: 192 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Nick Peters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 10 at 10:53pm

Doug - its all about the rules, currently SMODS do not allow replica sails , as you know. The OD's that you mention do not allow rule breaking and neither should SMODs.You are right, there is no difference other than that - that was my only point (not propoganda) - rules are rules and Class Associations are the guardians of those rules.

Any Association member of a SMOD can propose a rule change to allow open sailmaker. It could then be discussed and voted on. I'd put money on it not being popular. 

 
Nick


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Posts: 298 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 9:00am
I knew this would get interesting if Nick got involved

> It's all about the rules...

Can I just observe that probably over 50% of the RS400s out there are outside the rules, in that they are not
members of their CA and are therefore not technically in-class for the purposes of handicap racing or class
racing. But still they race and are treated as RS400s. Bung on a Rooster sail, and as long as the perception is
that no advantage has been gained then they will doubtless continue to race as before. They are more obviously out
of class, but it's still just a technicality. Bung on wings and a larger kite and suddenly it's gonna wind up the
other guys out there, maybe they get excluded from the results or given a different handicap, and they might as
well be sailing a completely different class of boat.

So I would suggest that as long as the perception of fair play persists, the out-of-class boat remains acceptable.
If the Rooster sail appears to be the same size and shape as the pukka item, then it will be accepted by most of
us as OK.

> A suit of 400 sails this summer is £1298 inc vat

I guess you'd know better than me Nick, but I got these prices off your website:

Main £684
Jib £319
Kite £498

Total £1501


Edited by Mikey 14778
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 9:23am
TT, there is a difference between allowing replica sails as a class (which is what a CA vote would be needed for), and putting up with them in handicap racing. I'd say, judging on the Laser experience, that the majority not only will accept replica sails at club handicap level, but really won't care (or possibly even notice or know it is against the rules) so long as they are getting a fun race in a good sized fleet. Beyond this, for club fleet racing or opens, you are quite right, class rules need to be followed.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 10:17am

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Mikey 14778


If



Similarly on what grounds do you ascertain that 50% of RS400 owners are
not members of the RS Owners Association? I'm not saying you are
wrong, I don't know either way, but basing arguments on supposition is
dangerous for one's credibility.

The last published set of accounts from the CA gave some clue as to membership. Was it roughly 1100 members over all the classes?

The significant number of participants in circuit events who pay for a weekend membership gives a further clue.

Extrapolating from local clubs gives us a fair idea too. Maybe we're meaner or poorer on the South Coast and shouldn't extrapolate nationally though?

My impression is that the CA memberships is 80% + constituted of those who have done more than two circuit opens or the Nationals in the last two years and is less than 150 RS400's.

So 50% take up of membership over the whole fleet is pretty unrealistic.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 10:20am

Originally posted by Rupert

TT, there is a difference between allowing replica sails as a class (which is what a CA vote would be needed for), ......

A CA vote would only lead to a request for the rules to be changed.

LDC have control of the rules.

 
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Posts: 298 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 10:38am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Mikey 14778

If
Similarly on what grounds do you ascertain that 50% of
RS400 owners are not members of the RS Owners Association? I'm not saying you are wrong, I don't know either way, but basing
arguments on supposition is dangerous for one's credibility.


The last published set of accounts from the CA gave some clue as to membership. Was it roughly 1100 members over all the
classes?


The significant number of participants in circuit events who pay for a weekend membership gives a further clue.


Extrapolating from local clubs gives us a fair idea too. Maybe we're meaner or poorer on the South Coast and shouldn't
extrapolate nationally though?


My impression is that the CA memberships is 80% + constituted of those who have done more than two circuit opens or the
Nationals in the last two years and is less than 150 RS400's.


So 50% take up of membership over the whole fleet is pretty unrealistic.



If I read that correctly, you're saying that a lot less than 50% of RS400 owners are members of the CA then. Phew, my
credibility (haha, what credibility?) remains intact.

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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 10:52am

This is just starting to look like another round of SMOD bashing ...

Often on this forum we get people from Restricted, Dev & OD classes starting up about why not allow different sail/mast makers etc in SMOD classes.

You never get SMOD sailors telling Fireballers that they should standardise on Winder/Selden/P&B do you ... although the Tornados have just done this.

Why just not accept that there are 2 different formats and if you buy into the the SMOD format really you ought to buy into the concept of buying the correct parts.

The replica sail debate will never go away and I think it is a matter of personal choice for the owner to decide if they wish to own a SMOD and deminish it with a non-standard sail.

In all but one of the SMOD classes I would say that the standard kit offers resonable value for money as the sails are of a good standard and last well. Only one SMOD class I have ever owned was I very dissapointed by the sail quality and the longevity of that sail ...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 10 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Guest#260

This is just starting to look like another round of SMOD bashing ...

Often on this forum we get people from Restricted, Dev & OD classes starting up about why not allow different sail/mast makers etc in SMOD classes.

You never get SMOD sailors telling Fireballers that they should standardise on Winder/Selden/P&B do you ... although the Tornados have just done this.

Why just not accept that there are 2 different formats and if you buy into the the SMOD format really you ought to buy into the concept of buying the correct parts.

The replica sail debate will never go away and I think it is a matter of personal choice for the owner to decide if they wish to own a SMOD and deminish it with a non-standard sail.

In all but one of the SMOD classes I would say that the standard kit offers resonable value for money as the sails are of a good standard and last well. Only one SMOD class I have ever owned was I very dissapointed by the sail quality and the longevity of that sail ...

I bought a new 400 mainsail approx 2 years ago and I am extremely happy with it, then and now.

The jibs tend to go quicker but it's because they have to flog while rigging and launching in a "blow", you just have to be careful with them.

The Spinnys tend to get a bashing, but then they have to disapear down a tiny opening, and seriously it's no different to any other classes wear and tear, but still, honestly you can race for years with them really.

I think I had the 400 for 7 years before taking the plunge on a new main, so that's really good value in my books.

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