PY Numbers (again)

Handicap racing is what it is, ie not perfect. Having said that its what a lot of us have to do nowadays so it'd be good to be able to address some of the bigger obvious mistakes. As others have said the current Phantom py is a joke. The new spec boats are completely different - a few of us at the club used to have a mix of wood/tin/grp/epoxy Phants and after a couple of seasons comparison (including the odd boat swap to try and counter the crew skill factor) we concluded the epoxy/carbon boats were around 2 or 3 minutes an hour quicker. Not very scientific admitedly, but the performance differences were so staggeringly large that they're hard to miss. Different boat really, so surely in need of a different py.

Its a shame the Phantom class assocation haven't been more assertive in this,  perhaps by suggesting an appropriate class recommended py number for new spec (ie epoxy/carbon) Phantoms. The current impasse does the reputation of the class no good at all, which is a shame as its a great boat.

Originally posted by Late starter Handicap racing is what it is, ie not perfect. Having said that its what a lot of us have to do nowadays so it'd be good to be able to address some of the bigger obvious mistakes. As others have said the current Phantom py is a joke. The new spec boats are completely different - a few of us at the club used to have a mix of wood/tin/grp/epoxy Phants and after a couple of seasons comparison (including the odd boat swap to try and counter the crew skill factor) we concluded the epoxy/carbon boats were around 2 or 3 minutes an hour quicker. Not very scientific admitedly, but the performance differences were so staggeringly large that they're hard to miss. Different boat really, so surely in need of a different py. Its a shame the Phantom class assocation haven't been more assertive in this,  perhaps by suggesting an appropriate class recommended py number for new spec (ie epoxy/carbon) Phantoms. The current impasse does the reputation of the class no good at all, which is a shame as its a great boat.

As already mentioned hear hear on this one!

Many clubs have altered the Phantom PY to a level more suited to their lake and conditions. Every dog has it's day and when it is blowing I enjoy going out in the Laser and giving the Phantoms what for. Similarly in the light I strap on the 8.1 rig and show them the way round (well some of them anyway). The issue is that the predominant conditions here in the UK (inland at least) are in the 5-15kt range. The Phantom performs exceptionally well in these conditions.

One of the guys at Hunts did a lot of PY analysis (he is a Phantom sailor himself) before we came up with the recommendation. The guy who is always at the front of the fleet (and who was in the top 10 at the 2009 nationals) was regularly sailing to a PY of around 1000, sometimes significantly faster than that. The rest of the fleet were between 1015 and 1040 so we went for a middling figure of 1030 which is a good average (after all this is what handicaps are unless you want to go down the route of personal handicaps).

Fingers crossed there may be a significant change in the new figures this year. If not we will be sticking with 1030 for the forseeable future. We do have a 'classic' Phantom definition which still sails off the standard handicap of 1043 (non-epoxy with a tin rig).

The bottom line is either:

1) Put up and remember handicap racing is just for fun, every dog has it's day

2) Sail a boat where you get fleet racing (even if it is a 'fleet' within a handicap race...)

3) If you can't beat them join them!

Just my 2p....

Originally posted by jeffers The bottom line is either: 1) Put up and remember handicap racing is just for fun, every dog has it's day 2) Sail a boat where you get fleet racing (even if it is a 'fleet' within a handicap race...) 3) If you can't beat them join them! Just my 2p....

Jeffers with respect ...

1) In some clubs this is all they have, so the least we can all do for the likes of them is to ensure the racing is as fair as possible by making sure all the times get reported back, good and bad.

2) Yes fleet racing does level the playing field ... however what about those people that really love their 1 off Whizbang 2000 ... surely they should have an option to race, not a dictation of class that they have to sail? Back to the best system possible!

3) See above

So the bottom line is to make it as fair as possible we need all the returns from the likes of Chew and other clubs with fleets of Phantoms, Challengers and any other class, winners and loosers alike. This will ensure the handicap they have is fair to them as well as all other classes. The RYA has gone to a great deal of effort to make the system easier to use so here's hoping 2010 becomes a better playing field.

The problem with the RYA PY returns system is that at present its based on class averages. Perhaps more can be done for problem classes like the Phantom by splitting returns into old spec/new spec categories, at least then we'd have some national numbers to look at rather than leaving it to clubs to fix via local handicaps. 

Oh then - according to "Late Starter" the Phantom PY issue is down to the Class Association - what a load of cobblers ! We are all sailing at our clubs off varying adjusted PY's its not the Associations fault - we have many a discussion on the Forum as to the differing Club adjustments used. Grafham has previously used adjusted PYs for the Grand Prix, but now does not - It isn't the Classes fault it has no input into the RYA scheme or returns, it is down to the Clubs and major events to submit surely !