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No race officer sailing
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: No race officer sailing
    Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Brass



We had a starter who shot away his P Flag and flag halyard with the shotgun.

He was left with no P Flag and no halyard to put one on.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 10:51am
We should still use cannons, but loaded. Slightly over, down comes the mast. 1/2 a boat length, off comes your head. We'd all be safe at Whitefriars apart from the ones who are so late they are crossing the line in the wrong direction.
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 11:23am
Looking at this interesting discussion, I'm left with the feeling that the only purpose of the RO is to collect the results, when there is so much more to it than that. Maybe if you are just in a limited inland piece of water racing without an RO is a more realistic proposition, but they don't call it Race Management for nothing - you are there to 'manage' the race. In a coastal setting, with tides, close to busy shipping routes and the possibility that a boat can easily wander out of the immediate sight lines, the role of the RO is far more complex. From setting the  course  to ensuring marks are laid, shortening, abandoning.... and only  then thinking about the results. 
This also passes by one other key factor, that of responsibility. If something goes wrong, who is responsible for taking whatever actions are required and potentially answering for those actions later. This isn't to say that running without an RO can't be done - when clearly it can, but I think we are an age away from this being a desirable development.

D 
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Posts: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 11:43am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Looking at this interesting discussion, I'm left with the feeling that the only purpose of the RO is to collect the results, when there is so much more to it than that. 
D 

Completely agree and in most instances, I dont advocate getting rid of the PRO. However, if automated systems CAN help reduce the burden of the many tasks and the number of additional people/volunteers required, then why not use them? 
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Chris_H


Originally posted by Dougaldog

Looking at this interesting discussion, I'm left with the feeling that the only purpose of the RO is to collect the results, when there is so much more to it than that. 
D 

Completely agree and in most instances, I dont advocate getting rid of the PRO. However, if automated systems CAN help reduce the burden of the many tasks and the number of additional people/volunteers required, then why not use them? 


Spot which was point of the OP question. I wasn’t after a list of why you can’t. Based on some replies it is amazing we have developed past down wind only sails
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 1:00pm
Chris H - now in that I'm in complete agreement with you. The situation becomes even more acute when you get to running Opens and the like, for if you follow some of the guidance from the RYA thinking, you can end up with what I would describe with an almost 'bloated' Race Team. However, the original title of this thread is 'No Race Officer sailing' which, given our current lockdown situation, could sensibly and practically be managed - fairly easily in a single class heat, slightly more complex in a handicap race, but even then - not impossible.

That said - and the point behind my post - was that you can automate the start - we do that already and with a bit of technology, you can record the finish - great. But that doesn't address the issue of what is going on between the start and the finish.......

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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by tink

Originally posted by Chris_H


Originally posted by Dougaldog

Looking at this interesting discussion, I'm left with the feeling that the only purpose of the RO is to collect the results, when there is so much more to it than that. 
D 

Completely agree and in most instances, I dont advocate getting rid of the PRO. However, if automated systems CAN help reduce the burden of the many tasks and the number of additional people/volunteers required, then why not use them? 


Spot which was point of the OP question. I wasn’t after a list of why you can’t. Based on some replies it is amazing we have developed past down wind only sails


Several times on this thread people have tried to equate the actual sailing boats we sail with the technology being used to record things. Why? I simply cannot see the connection in any practical terms.
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 1:50pm
Racing round four buoys set in a square would be easy to monitor, 500 metre sides, each class would know its optimal lap time for a given wind speed. Whoever gets closest to their boats theoretical speed is the winner, you can start anytime.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 1:51pm


Originally posted by Chris_H


Originally posted by Dougaldog

Looking at this interesting discussion, I'm left with the feeling that the only purpose of the RO is to collect the results, when there is so much more to it than that. 
D 

Completely agree and in most instances, I dont advocate getting rid of the PRO. However, if automated systems CAN help reduce the burden of the many tasks and the number of additional people/volunteers required, then why not use them? 

The answer to this last question is: Because there are a number of money and opportunity costs in introducing automated systems, particularly complex, cradle to grave integrated computer systems. These include:

money costs of systems and hardware, trackers, tally boards etc, which can be high;

annoying and actually distressing race management team members, taking them out of their technological comfort zone and introducing what they may perceive as new or additional work for them to do

dissatisfaction among competitors if a new system does not meet their expectations.

As Polc said a while ago, for big automations, you probably need a business case, starting with the aim of the exercise, which might be:

Reduce overheads (people and person-hours)

Improve the experience for competitors:

·       Faster, more accurate, more accessible results
        Enable sailor-managed racing so that sailors can have more flexibility about when they race: Move away from Saturday Afternoon Club racing?
·       Reduce the amount of race committee duty competitors have to be rostered for

Improve the experience for race management people:
·        Easier, more reliable tasks;
·        Less time spent
·        Without having to battle with difficult new technology.

I've got a few more posts about this topic coming.


Edited by Brass - 06 Jan 21 at 8:32pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 21 at 1:54pm

RO Less Racing

 If you are prepared to accept quite minor loss of accuracy (OCS or Finish time +/- 10 sec) it is quite possible to run races without race officials on the water, using apps like RaceQs etc.

 I don’t think the cost of dedicated trackers is worth it.  Yellowbrick can set up a finishing line with lats and longs, and do one second pings to get accurate finishing times, and could be set up to do the same for a starting line, but that’s a very expensive solution.  I think smartphone apps are the way to go.

 You could possibly use virtual marks, but that would require some software that is not normally readily available on dinghies, and presents difficulties with rule 18, so you would need a series of laid marks (or accept the overhead of laying (and retrieving) marks.

 You could, conceivably apply some sort of Time on Distance handicapping using RaceQs, with virtual marks in generally specified locations without requiring boats to actually round (just to go near) the marks.  This would get a bit complicated and be a bit rough and ready as to accuracy.

 You would probably have to do a rabbit start.

 You would have to draft some SI that look pretty different from ‘normal’ SI, but it is doable.

 It would all depend on the fleet’s ‘appetite for inaccuracy’ and goodwill.  I think that the fleet would have to accept that 20 cm here or there did NOT matter.

 I’ve seen virtual mark racing destroyed by competitors who just didn’t want to accept the system.
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