Hadron H2

Originally posted by iGRF So and I don't care what happens now, the way it happens now is out of control. Markets should be lead by those who create them, not muppets in smoke filled rooms or why bother to invest? How can a club apply for a number if it isn't given a guide to start with, that surely is what the EN is about and the EN should be set by the manufacturer/designer in fact it shouldn't even be an 'E" number it should be the MRN manufacturer recommended number which should take precedence over incompetent committee bumbling until the product/class gets established. Now that Hadron having just bunged it through the Peaky/Fuller (I tweaked the formula a bit) EN generator which came out with 1041 at a maximum crew weight of 100kgs. and with the old wooden hull weight it's 1065. That's how quick and simple it can be, and hey if you don't weigh 100 kgs, and you're sailing it at say 85 kgs, then it should be 1023. And even an idiot could manipulate the formula.

..... and certainly under no circumstances approach ('anyone') for an EN.

This is one suggestion from GRF that makes a lot of sense to me  (no I don't agree with him on everything but I do believe they have simply become institutionalized into 'seeing no signal').  You will get much closer and much more quickly to a useful handicap number by entering boats into the next SJ series and seeing what number they calculate under the Great Lakes systems by the end of it. (GL is simply a related but improved derivative approach really).   You get to compare your craft directly against good examples of known classes that are mostly well sailed on the same water and at the same time. There are many many advantages in taking this route - appropriate and relevant sampling for a start being the obviously one... Most new classes, with just occasional exceptions, will of course have limited numbers /results for some time so getting the sampling approach right is absolutely critical.  I’m not convinced today that the RYA think there is any problem for any new classes and EN/PN that warrants any response.  

In fact I'd even consider avoiding affiliating the class to the RYA frankly - that can come much later if justified.  I see little point in paying for the 'privilege' that comes with the vagaries of the current PN system handling of new classes.  It is really a 'one size fits all' mincer.  Occasionally all of us turkeys out here will vote for Christmas but I see little point why we should continue having to pay 'them' for it as well. 

Edited by Cirrus - 11 Mar 16 at 11:54am

Or just do what the PY system advocates you do which is look at a similar boat (or as similar as you can get it) and use that as a starting point.

Originally posted by jeffers Or just do what the PY system advocates you do which is look at a similar boat (or as similar as you can get it) and use that as a starting point. This is what happened with the D-Zero, most places used either the GL number of 1010 (which frankly was a bit quick but did not dissuade the D-Zero fleet from attending the winter series events) or based it on a similar boat like a Laser with a Rooster 8.1 rig so about 1040. Funnily enough the first EN came out at 1040 and how now become a published PY of 1033. The system works, of a fashion, but too many people complain about it rather than do anything about it. Local adjusting is encouraged and the PYS site does give a list of localised numbers. The problem is more to do with inertia within clubs to change the published numbers. Anyway back to the H2 which looks like a very nice bit of kit if a little pricey.

If the D Zero has a similar sized sail to the Rooster (but is a far more modern rig), yet sails off a similar handicap, that really demonstrates that the old Laser hull is still pretty effective ?

Why was the 8.1 such a relative flop ?

Until there are enough returns with data points for the X1/X0, Graeme, I don't expect any EN or PN to be published and I believe this is the only reason it hasn't. I would love there to be enough, but unfortunately I haven't got there yet (maybe I'm concentrating too much time on Germany...). There is certainly no particular desire on my part to 'keep under the radar' - I would hope to be treated just like any other boat.

However that doesn't stop me feeling a little hard done by now and again at some clubs here in the UK - dare I say it particularly at my home club in London where last year the X1 was given 850 and the X0 900.... likely as the result of always sailing it with nearly the best crew at the club in the light to medium river conditions that it's designed for, against only Lasers and Enterprises. But I'm pleased to say the club has now clocked this is far too low and for 2016 we've been given more sensible numbers.

For your info the way the X1's handicap has evolved so far has been:
- original estimate from the designer Phil Morrison of "970 - but on tide a bit lower".
- initial tests with the kind help of Andrew Craig at QMSC in a range of conditions on open water suggesting very close indeed to the RS400, that I then mention to race officers at any events we have done.
- who then look at it, confer with their colleagues, and then decide what to give it.
- since then there have been some excellent sailors sail it extensively (like AlexM) and on open water I think validated things to a degree.

But there is still some settling down to do, and certainly when it is on fluky/small inland waters/rivers it may be quite difficult it is so fast.

In the past we have been to some events (in UK and Germany) that have had as a policy a specific % penalty for new or unknown designs, or have told us that they reserve the right to adjust our handicap before the final day of a regatta - which you may think odd or unfair - but frankly we have been very happy to accept anything we get given.

And we'll be carrying on until we do manage to get enough of those datapoints we need!

PS On another matter and hot off the press.... I believe Rodney will be organising another Forumites meeting this year - late summer (is that right Rodney?!) so inevitably I think we'll all be keen to see what new prototype dinghy Dan Holman will be bringing along to this one....
(NB I hope you've finally bought a new wetsuit there Graeme.... )

Polite Notice: I have a commercial interest in the X1 and X0.