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Modern symmetric two-hander?
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Modern symmetric two-hander?
    Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 9:24am
The boat is only part of the package, the club, its environment, the people involved in the class and club, and the class association all add to the experience, so if you come into the game with a boat that has neither a venue, a club, an active class association, there are an awful lot of boxes that have not been ticked.  Even if we ignore the depreciation should the class not gain traction.

I also think that despite the web, it is actually quite hard to get the message out to the potential audience of some new wonder boat ... IMO dinghy racing has become more parochial and the print media is less effective, or more to the point, there have been so many "me too boats" in recent years that there is less confidence when something interesting comes along.

I noted that the Supernova is destined to join the 100+ club (does that still exist) ... I don't think that I have ever seen a Supernova ... I am sure that there is a message in this somewhere, but I can't work it out!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 9:35am
To be clear I wasn't referring to the Icon in particular, just that it is clearly unsatisfactory to have the manufacturer recommend a number - there will always be accusations of bias no matter how unfounded. It would be good if the RYA had a method for generating initial numbers or scheme for approving them, but in their absense there is room for an independent organisation to do so - perhaps GRFs Dinghy Racing Association?

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JohnJack View Drop Down
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 10:17am
Has there been any 'modern' design suitable for home/kit build. Everything I can think of except maybe the Farr 3.? have all been smods.
Most of the 'older' designs were designed for home build as well as professional.
Allot of the newer designs seem to be smods and are molded in some way, this makes it difficult to produce in large numbers.
Even if not home build, having other builder able to build such as Gosling,Duffin,Jolly,Harper,Jarvey etc etc can only help increase numbers. It was asked earlier in this thread, where is the modern Jack Holt. I don't think any of the Jack Holt boats would have gained traction had they not been so (relatively) easy to build

(I am also not necessarily referring to wood either, Gosling has been building with epoxy foam like materials in Scorpion and Solos for a while now, super strong and light weight)

You can even see this pardigm within an old class. The GP14's had a big overhaul in the 90's with a move to the Series 2 which had the underfloor buoyancy tank. It was designed specifically so that it could be built from sheet rather than just molded. You still see more wooden boats than 'plastic' because of this. It improved the boat, made it more friendly to recover from capsize and the class is still going strong.
The Enterprise on the other hand followed suit about 5 years ago, redesigning the boat (very poorly in my opinion) to include an under floor buoyancy tank, no consideration was taken to build this from sheet, so there is only a molded variant available. It hasn't really taken off and there still aren't that many of them around. I heard all the sheeting angles where changed as well which can't be replicated in Wood either.

Larks are struggling at the moment (think there hasn't been a new boat in 3 years), I would put this down to, at least in part, they are not easy to build and need to be molded 
 
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 10:20am
Originally posted by JohnJack

Larks are struggling at the moment (think there hasn't been a new boat in 3 years), I would put this down to, at least in part, they are not easy to build and need to be molded 
 

really?  I'd put it down to the fact that if anyone in the Lark demographic were going to buy a new boat, then the RS200 would be the difficult choice to overlook.  
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 10:37am
The Icon / PN debate really has been done to death already.  The reality is that  PN, as far as handicap racing goes, does not matter that much any more.  The GL system is now used at most of the major handicap events (esp SJ series) and regular clubs are/have made their own adjustments already ... as they should do and as they are recommended to do by that august organ .... the RYA.

My own view is that the number of 2 crew / 2 sail racing boats being sold is really very modest.  How many Albacores, Ents or Tasars have sold in the UK recently ?  I don't know but I'm guessing only a relative handful even with all the advantages of being the 'established'.  New 2 sail classes, particulary good ones can still attract a modest cult following but the general orthodoxy of today, if there is one, is for 2 crew / 3 sail boats.   
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 12:31pm
Since this thread is about a modern symmetric kite, two crew, hiking  boat it would seem the X1 is about the only choice.   But for my liking that is too long, too narrow and over canvassed.  

An Icon with a twin pole symmetric kite would be a good round-the-cans club racer.  It would solve the problem all two sail boats have on those long runs & broad reaches; not enough rag up.    Even a modern development Canoe is slow on a run in the lighter stuff.   It doesn't need to be a monster kite, just enough to prevent the boat going at a snails pace.  

Anyway, the Icon seems to have vanished; which is a shame. 






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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Peaky

To be clear I wasn't referring to the Icon in particular, just that it is clearly unsatisfactory to have the manufacturer recommend a number - there will always be accusations of bias no matter how unfounded. It would be good if the RYA had a method for generating initial numbers or scheme for approving them, but in their absense there is room for an independent organisation to do so - perhaps GRFs Dinghy Racing Association?


to be fair, it hasn't really taken that long for the Aero and Zero to find an official EN.  You just need to get some diversity into the returns by shifting a few units.  I don't think I've seen any bleating from any sailor of either class about the process....  a far cry from what happened with the Icon's initial launch.  All it seemed to be was criticising this or that handicap, tbh, I lost track / interest in following it after a while.


Edited by turnturtle - 02 Nov 15 at 12:53pm
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by boatshed

It would solve the problem all two sail boats have on those long runs & broad reaches; not enough rag up.    Even a modern development Canoe is slow on a run in the lighter stuff.   It doesn't need to be a monster kite, just enough to prevent the boat going at a snails pace.  


I am not sure that any of the two sail boats give the sense of going at a snail's pace off wind when they fleet racing, and their appeal to some is the simplicity for the crew in not having a spinnaker.

As has already been suggested ... the problem with the Icon was the number of iterations of development in what is meant to be a one design, to get a class off the ground you need to instill confidence with your target market and the softly/softly aproach of marketing failed with the MRX and maybe with the X1 ...

And if you put a kite on you may as well buy a Merlin, which if you by a middle aged Winder Tales, would involve little depreciation c/w the gamble of a new SMOD.  And if you are handicap racing you could buy an even older Merlin for £2-3k and have a lot of bangs for your buck.
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Posts: 71 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Solo4652 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 15 at 1:40pm
Hi Folks,

It's the OP here, just checking in.

We got the X1 out yesterday but soon packed it away because of lack of wind. We'll be racing it in Leigh and Lowton's open Autumn series up until Christmas. Thereafter, we're not sure what we're doing, hence my search for a boat I can sail. It looks like the person who was going to crew for me won't be available, so I'm not now looking for the "modern 2-sail symmetric". Actually, apart from the X1/0, there doesn't seem to be one, does there.

So, I'm back looking for the modern lightweight sit-in as opposed to sit on singlehander with a stayed rig and 1 sail. I owned an Aero for a short while - too tippy. I currently sail a Solution but all the kneeling has wrecked my knees. I'm considering a Streaker. I'd be interested in an "alternative" build material to make it easier to hit the minimum weight of 48 kgs. Ply-foam-ply is a possibility, but there are other composite boards that might work. How about carbon tube skeleton covered in an epoxy-infused heat-shrink? Just trying to shake things up a bit and use new boat-building techniques. Rooster's "Project X" didn't get off the ground - pity. Here's the Y&Y thread I started: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12205&title=plyfoamply-streaker
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Posts: 139 		Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 15 at 9:55am

Kind of "after the fact", but anyway...

My dinghy of choice should get a smile on my face even if there was no single boat to sail against.

For “a smile on my face” a dinghy needs to be “responsive” and without major vices/annoying things. Kite poles lying on the floor, leaking bailers, low booms, swamped single bottom cockpits, quirky “unbalanced” rudder shapes, useless vangs  etc are not for me.  I will even struggle to call such a dinghy “modern”. 

There definitely is a balance between a dinghy being too heavy to be “responsive” and a dinghy being too light and showing vices.

 After sailing both  I strongly believe that D-zero and X1 prove that a significantly better “mousetrap” can be designed with e.g. light weight carbon masts offsetting lighter hulls that offer less inertia and maybe also less “stability” or up-to-date sail designs allowing to handle more sail area. On top of that both offer significantly better performance than their “traditional” counterparts – at least at what they are designed for. 

ICON could also fall into this bucket just from looking at it.

Now I just need to save my money and wait until second hand X1’s that allow writing off the full amount at the time of purchase appear on the market…
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