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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: HALO (and 'Fire') ....
    Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:15pm
I guess "the Hartley effect" was more of a draw than the weight reduction was damaging.  If your boat is to be made obsolete through a class weight reduction, then at least it's nice to be able to buy the upgrade relatively cheaply!  

That's how things seem to have worked in the Wayfarer class where the fleet at opens has changed almost completely since Hartleys took over production.  There's only one of the old regular boats still to be seen, but huge numbers of new ones.

Also, I'm thinking that with the cost of materials these days, reducing the weight could actually help reduce the cost, provided the build didn't become more complicated.
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by Rupert

The weight reduction in the Supernova class appears to have actually increased sales, so it can work, but will cause pain for a while. On the other hand, I can see it killing a class stone dead if done wrong.

Yes without actively hijacking this thread as well.  I was somewhat surprised to see the changes in the Supernova.  But more surprised to see that the class moved forward significantly since.  You would think making many of the older boats obsolete would put people off.  Yet it appears to be stronger than ever.  Which is a good things i guess.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:00pm
The weight reduction in the Supernova class appears to have actually increased sales, so it can work, but will cause pain for a while. On the other hand, I can see it killing a class stone dead if done wrong.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:57am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

MM- in reality wouldn't they seize in place?  I went through 2 cans of mclube and a lot of rubber hammer strokes to get my old 600 wings to dislodge.  

You think my suggested velcro straps would seize?!  And the Blaze currently uses pins for rack adjustment; used every week as they are for boat-park-friendliness there's no problem with freezing.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting telescopic carbon wings, just one-piece ones that are the same width as most Blaze owners choose to use (2.40m-odd) which would so far as I can see weigh only a kilo or so more than the 1.90 carbon one-piece wings.  Lightweights need beam most of all!
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Rupert

Did you ever try sailing the boat with no wings at all?

In the light stuff I used to sail my Blaze with the wings right in as this made roll tacking possible. 

You quickly need the wings as the wind builds though.
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:48am
I like the idea of being able to swap the 3 rigs with one mast and one hull Mike.  it gives the new class a steady supply of used boats to buld from, so a relatively low entry point in terms of price.  

But one question, is the new reduced hull a prototype for weight reduction changes to the blaze class as a whole?  Or just a project to see how light you can make one?  
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:38am
Did you ever try sailing the boat with no wings at all?
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:29am

No forestay attachment...this an oversight or is this not added at the factory?

Well spotted that man !    We are will in fact trying something different on the bow.  These are normally factory fitted at this stage of build off course.

Racing - Each CA will have its own approach to derivatives and if their choice works for them it is not wrong.  

The Blaze CA is more likely to separate derivatives, Fire owners will not really want to be blanketed by 30-50 odd Blazes etc on the line and so on.   So I expect shared meetings and common courses naturally but separate starts.

All will be members of the Blaze class association though.   The official names of each are Blaze-Fire, Blaze and Blaze-Halo.  However just the 'Fire', 'Blaze'  and 'Halo' logos are carried on the sails - this is to avoid any race-officer 'confusions'..... each will of course be handicapped on different numbers.  The sail numbers are all standard Blaze sequence ones, with all sails reflecting  the hull number as we do expect some to have more than one rig available.  

Wing width ... My own position has already been made clear.  But it would be foolish not to try new ideas occasionally.  Trialling something does not automatically mean adoption !  Like many of us    I've made mistakes in the past, including rejecting damn good ideas.  Experience teaches all of us, well OK OK most of us, to be more open minded.   However I must also say that the Blaze has always had an adjustable width wing system (with up to 4 widths possible)  .... one which most do choose to set to the maximum permitted. 

I mostly agree with kneewrecker on the 'standard' arguments.  The issue we are directly addressing or questioning is however this... "Are regular sailors prepared to sacrifice leverage for a weight reduction"    Because if they do we should consider the option....

The difference here is we are equipping 2 hulls for assessment - one a 'regular' minimum weight hull and wings and the other a light(er) hull and light(er) but narrower wings.  YOU will soon be able to try both versions on the same day, and in the same conditions - that is our aim.   We'll even come to your club if invited as well.   Then you can tell us about your experience with each .. and we really  want regular grass-roots club sailors involved.

Mike L.           
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:29am
MM- in reality wouldn't they seize in place?  I went through 2 cans of mclube and a lot of rubber hammer strokes to get my old 600 wings to dislodge.  
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:28am
Originally posted by jeffers

 
Then you come up against the PY can of worms.......



only if:

a) the club aren't using PY properly and locally adjusting where appropriate

b) you don't accept that other classes through years have reduced their minimum weight and PY corrects this over time
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