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Originally posted by Neptune I think you want to be aiming at 950 so at least you'll be racing over the water with 400's.  Who knows get a few together and that RS400 fella might join you!

If it isn't faster than an RS400, it isn't progress is it?

Assuming the design aim is similar of course.

Of course, if it won't sail to 950 as a hiking boat, maybe we should stick a Proctor Cumulus on it and see if that cheers it up a bit?


(In the real world of course there are many circumstances where a 400 won't easily sail to 950 either!)

Greame ...

I think you have 'risen' too quickly ... the standard response is "OK then - here is a boat, borrow it for a month, get used to it and race it yourself"  .... at my own club I've been known to suggest a 'boat swap'  with both parties agreeing to establish the others 'true' handicap in the opposite class.  The owner then being obliged to accept it for a few months afterwards.   Nothing like a bit of positive 'engagement'  ... but few takers for this one usually.

I don't have a problem with anyone using recorded numbers ... and establishing a local first handicap based on real results - prior to the full PN system spitting out a number.   After 100+ races or so you can start to produce something meaningful - particularly if you do another 100 with different  crews as well. 

But there will always be some remaining who still don't 'like' what the numbers and stats are saying for class 'x' even then .. and if in a position to influence they may get tempted to apply a 'fiddle factor' based on impression, anecdote and what can only be described as 'clubhouse politics'.  Sweeping statements starting with  'Anyone can see .... ' or 'It is obvious that ...' can still be heard in the face of the stats staring out of the spreadsheets at them.       Best not to rise to that particular 'viewpoint' too hard either ... but don't let it drop either.  Just keep reviewing the objective figures yourself and perhaps ask 'them' to show you exactly where you might have 'gone wrong' with the number crunching and analysis.  If they are rational and open they will assist and you will get an adjusted number and if they do not you are no worse off.

Not a problem if you have facts on your side.  You must accept what might be a slightly 'punitive' starting number at first of course.. but keep reminding everyone that you can crunch the numbers as well as anyone and will feel free to come back to highlight objective figures. 

At first with any development boat work it simply does not matter ... it takes time to get right and optimised and all you need is some benchmark to work against.  Focus on the boat and the handicap can follow later.

Mike L.

PS - Why is the 400 being compared here ?  Neither Icon or GRF's project are directly comparable - Icon has no spinnaker and GRF's will have a trapeze.   We know it is a fantastic boat well loved by its adoring owners already ...  How about the GRF machine speculation with something more directly comparable .. like the 500 or Fireball, 3000, perhaps ?


Edited by blaze720 - 05 Nov 13 at 10:01am

Originally posted by Neptune I think you want to be aiming at 950 so at least you'll be racing over the water with 400's.  Who knows get a few together and that RS400 fella might join you!

Our twin handed mix is a well sailed Merlin Bandit, A couple of 400's both capable of winning across the water in their condition, improvers in an L3k, a Hornet currently promoting its underside as an advertising hoarding, a 470 old but well sailed,a couple of Visions, depends who's in them but in a breeze they can be dangerous.

Down the lake it's another older Merlin, a Miracle infestation, a Scorpion a Snipe and mostly other billy no mate boats they're all good and take no prisoners, it's an excellent venue for tactical boat to boat and quick fire mark rounding training, to bring on intermediates.

Originally posted by yellowwelly Originally posted by iGRF So it'll need multiple handicaps eventually why would it?  If you sail a Fireball in a F1-2 the crew doesn't need to wire, should they get a higher (slower) number?

If you enter a series then you will have to keep the boat as it is with one handicap, I doubt you could change it week to week.

Yes and no, we can do that in the Alto when course and condition suit, but you couldn't put the Alto on a small lake like the Redoubt.
Our races tend to be Contender & MPS dominated and the boys in the Merlin also win a lot, not always just on handicap, they are no slouch as a team that reels you in and punishes mistakes.
So a boat with fewer opportnity for boat handling an kite mare errors would be good, ninety percent of our problems last year were equipment issues of one description or another, hence wanting a simple layout like the Icon, that and the heavy lifting we're both done with.