Cirrus Icon Development

Originally posted by Peaky ... Different people have different priorities and different disposable income levels. Whilst not wealthy, I have never chosen a boat based on hoped for resale values. I pick a boat I think will be good to sail. .......

I agree up to a point, but I have to say I took residual value into account when I bought my 400. Paying £4k for a used boat, being sure I would only lose a few hundred quid if it didn't work out seemed compelling at the time. Now I'd be happy to put more capital in and budget on say a grand a year or so for depreciation. I'd find it easier to justify £15k on a Winder Merlin than half that on a boat that might have no market in 5 years.
Conversely, if your budget is £1k a year, you can lose a lot of money on cheap horrible boats if you don't put any capital in expecting to get it back.
Talk to people about cars. Many people with newish cars think about the cost per month, not the headline price.
A lot of people I know seem to have bought new boats when they have inherited or some other windfall, they don't expect a repeat and want the boat to hold value and still deliver good racing in 5 years time or more. Others have traded up, using the residual value of the previous boat.
The real dedicated spenders can pour money into 14's or bespoke Merlins. But even that probably pales into insignificance compared to various keelboat classes that have evaporated.
There are other risks too, until a class has some miles on the clock, you don't know how weight sensitive it is, or what people it is going to attract.

Originally posted by blaze720 Price ? - Devoti will be developing pricing with us but lets just say for now it sits between an RS 200 and an RS400

Originally posted by Thunder Road I think Mike is right this is getting off balance as a debate, an Icon sells its self or not at all, you (I) buy one because you want one, ie it is the boat you wish to sail. I don't think we should turn this thread into a comparison site, the mud slinging will be endless.

I don't see how the icon can exist in splendid isolation. Most of us make choices and comparisons when choosing a boat. Same as choosing anything else. Unless you're going to have a 400 as well?
I seem to recall Mike making performance comparisons with the Merlin himself? The Merlin, 200 and 400 are perhaps the obvious comparisons being among the biggest no-trapeze fleets?
I see 'no trapeze' as being more to the point than 'no kite'.
I'm not really interested as a potential buyer, but I am interested on a technical level about how well the rig performs across the wind range. Apart from the Merlin and the N12, we don't see a lot of development in 2 man hiking dinghy carbon rigs, and both of those have a lot of class rules. Whereas the Icon should be state of the art with no luggage.
So in real terms, just how much better is it? What progress have we made?
If we had a clean sheet of paper and the knowledge from boats like the icon, how much better could we make a successor to the RS400? (or whatever dinghy you sail!)
Is there a 'quantum leap' to be had, waiting for a builder to exploit?
Or just another little increment in speed?
To me, the academic interest in dinghy development (which is what this forum is supposedly about) is a bit separate from the physical activity of fleet racing.

Academia is for academics and interesting debate flows around for sure but discussion should also inform the real world and in turn reflect on actual experience ie real on-the-water feedback.  The Icon concept does not come about as a reaction to the boom in asymetrics in the 90's, any particular classes and for that matter it is not particularly 'UK' in emphasis.

Icon's 'root's if you like to think about it like that are more NS14 / Tasar etc.  Its target market has little to do with UK spinnaker boats or elsewhere for that matter.  We can have a debate about 'intention' or 'target' but life is frankly too short and well perhaps we are just commercially biased ourselves.  Most people eventually get bored and would simply rather try for themselves.  We are however very happy here that  it has hit the full design specification.

If 'they' like it, for whatever reasons they have, they may go on and consider it as a future possibility and vice versa.  I'm well known for suggesting that poeple on this forum (and elsewhere !) cut to the chase and go sailing, begging or borrowing whatever is the subject boat and a bit more time.

You can design aircraft on amazing systems these days but somebody, in the end when all is said and done has to fly it.  Boats are a lot safer, believe me - so just get out there !   

You will decide if we have got Icon right, whether the rig works as specified and if you think it is faster or slower than the 'whatever' class.  It is quick enough for most but not at any price, that was not the objective.  You can compare it yourself to trapeze boats, spinnaker boats or like Icon straight 2-sail alternatives.    All that has happened in the last few days is a few more people have sailed or borrowed a standard Icon and had a cracking time with the boat ... and reported their gut reactions here - but most do not.   They have reason to rave about it and please note no previous connection with Cirrus or me so you are getting it straight and as reported... Well I'm delighted anyway but if you have your doubts over their reports or have a further technical interest why not see if you agree with them - But you really will have to try an Icon to do it !  ... So Forumites meeting maybe ?

Mike L (Cirrus)

I have owned an icon and a 200, and crewed a 400 for a couple of years. Never sailed a Merlin though.
The Icon is more similar to the 400 than the 200, in terms of (kiteless)speed, size and helm weight (in as much as a 200 won't cope with a helm over 80kg very well). An icon crew, however, is confronted with a physical challenge more akin to the 200 than the 400. Sheet loads for the helm are lower in the Icon too.
The acceleration of the Icon is considerably more rapid than either the 200 or the 400. It would feel quite stable to a 200 sailor, but perhaps a little less so than a 400. The 400 is a better quality boat the the 200, and the Icon with Harken gear, North sails, VE foam sandwich hull, carbon spars and Devoti build is step further on again. Design progress in SMODs is not (at) all about speed increases. Ease of ownership, robustness, comfort, price, fun, quality, aesthetics, how it feels, attention to detail and 'feedback' are all important. The Icon is a boat with deliberatly few strings, so quite different to a Merlin.     As beautiful and refined as they are, I have never considered owning one, so to me it is a million miles from an Icon. But there is much overlap in the world and undoubtedly both Icon and Merlin will appeal to some.
There are lots of boats that are superficially similar - ISO and Fireball, Fireball and Merlin, Merlin and Scorpion, Scorpion and 200, 200 and Lark, Lark and and N12, N12 and Enterpise, Ent and GP14, etc, etc. Comparing them can be useful, but only if the frame of reference is understood. The Icon is no different - it is no more similar to a 200 than a Scorpion is. Each has their appeal. To me the Icon's appeal is the modern rig, cool hull, and simplicity. To link to another current thread, I would say the Icon offers more feedback than most, but still retains its manners.
As Mike says - lots of good boats (hooray!). Go out and try them, and sail the ones you prefer.