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piglet View Drop Down
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Laser Rag
    Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 6:17pm
How many sails did LP sell last year against how many copies were bought?
If LP accepted a lower unit profit would they cover their loss by snuffing out the copies market?

For the record I have bought 2 genuine Radials in the last 12 months.
Prior to that 2 copies, apart from the missing logo couldn't tell the difference.
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iiiiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiiiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 15 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by iiiiitick

Errr...Laser chap....Is that not like buying a Rolex for £10,000 when a Casio keeps time just as well. 'I like Rolex because even if they are ten times too expensive they care and the bloke in the showroom makes me coffee'. I have a fake Rolex by the way which is perfect. Keeps good time as well!

Since they took over as builders of Byte Hartleys have offered massive discounts. Even at the price quoted I bet there is profit in sails trolleys etc. Profit is ok, business needs profit and their enthusiasim deserves reward but I cannot see any philanthropy in Lasers business.

As for your first point, how pathetic. No, I don't have a spare £10k to spend on a rolex. I don't think I would want one either. I'm certainly not cheap and flashy enough to have a fake, thats worse than not having a rolex at all in my books! But yes, I would say that the reason I make most of my purchases is that the product is good quality and comes with good service. That is why I use apple for all of my home computing requirements, the customer service is exceptional. Likewise with BMW, I don't even have to take my car to be serviced, they come and do it for me, and when they return the car it is beautifully cleaned and even the driver is well presented.

Regarding your Hartleys comment, I'm not sure there is much profit in sails and trolleys, speaking as someone in the industry. Any profit there is comes with no effort, but there is very little. Margins mostly come from things you build in house or assemble. I don't think there is much comparison between Hartley's and Laser's business models. Even with all of that profit that laser supposedly make, there is still not a cheaper boat on the market in that sort of size range. I would also go as far as saying that the quality of the laser is pretty good, you don't see many boats the age of some lasers still being competitive in local club racing! 

Well....we have to do what we can. Me rattling my fake jewelry, the wife (lovely girl) with her plastic titties, cost me a bomb! I had a Beemer, nice motor, got it serviced by a Latvian bloke round the corner, illegal bloke, took cash, good lad. Sailing? Love it, I can give six to one on Goodison for gold?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 15 at 5:20am
Originally posted by Peaky

Chris, I didn't say you should buy a new boat. I didn't even hint at it.
There is a very large disconnect between the various Laser governing bodies (whose infighting is well documented) and the rank and file owner.
To this former owner the class appears highly dysfunctional. I have many friends who sail Lasers and would like to think I can make this point with them all feeling insulted. The Laser is a class where the designer launched an identical rival product, the two main builders are fighting in court, the majority of owners do not belong to the CA and racing out of class is endemic. So where is the leadership?
Contrary to the number of posts I have on the subject, I do not have particularly strong views on this. I am merely trying to point out that the widespread use of replica sails may not be the harmless means of increasing grassroot participation that it is touted to be.
Contrast this to the Solo fleet. The fundamental design is even more outdated and inferior in many respects. However, the builders and CA add huge value through their excellent work.

Ahh, the wonders of the internet.  When you wrote "buying 20 yo lasers and fitting them out with replica sails is not a healthy, sustainable future....Participants need to fund the sport they play" it can be read as saying that people should buy a new boat (and a new "real" sail) or else they are not playing their part in funding their sport.  As noted, IMHO those who can only afford the old boat/replica sail route are effectively supporting the rest of us*, because they supply part of the numbers we want in the fleet.

Sure, in an ideal world people would buy real Laser sails and a proportion of that money would support the class.  Like you I don't feel that the class is being run properly (which is mainly the fault of one builder or licensee AFAIK) and therefore since sail royalties are not doing much to support the class, and the sail price does seem excessive, the use of replicas seems to be a reasonable way to exert pressure on the manufacturers.  The other way to exert pressure would be for people to walk away from the class, which in many places would mean walking away from singlehanded racing. That's much less productive.

I do think the class leaders (or at least the ones I've been in contact with) are doing the best they can, but it's a classic case of consumers v one producer who sees them as pawns.  

* Whoops, maybe I shouldn't have said "the rest of us".....I've got a cheap old boat and ancient "real" sails plus one replica that came with the boat so I'm one of the guilty parties.


Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Oct 15 at 5:24am
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Hengest View Drop Down
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Posts: 77 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hengest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 15 at 2:10pm
Don't dis the people buying 20 year old lasers, they're the ones who will upgrade to a 5 year old boat in a few years allowing those that have the need and resources, to buy another new boat.

We're all supporting the class in one way or another and despite a load of snobbish anti laser mentality, it's still the best class for guaranteeing that you have lots of people to play with with as near identical boats as makes no difference.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 15 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Hengest

Don't dis the people buying 20 year old lasers, they're the ones who will upgrade to a 5 year old boat in a few years allowing those that have the need and resources, to buy another new boat.

We're all supporting the class in one way or another and despite a load of snobbish anti laser mentality, it's still the best class for guaranteeing that you have lots of people to play with with as near identical boats as makes no difference.

That is how I started out when I came back to sailing. Bought an old boat then upgraded twice then changed class and then came back before changing class again (after getting bored with the Laser and my local fleet dying a death as people switched classes).

I didn't join the UKLA though as it gave nothing to me as a club sailor (never travelled with the boat). I had a long chat with Jon Emmett about this a number of years back and he asked what the class could do to attract people like me to join. I said demonstrate that I will get something for my outlay rather than it just funding events for those who travel. A class mag a couple of times a year did represent value to me as a sailor. Other classes I have sailed I have always joined the CA as they worked hard for the class and people in the boat.
Paul
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 15 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by Hengest

Don't dis the people buying 20 year old lasers, they're the ones who will upgrade to a 5 year old boat in a few years allowing those that have the need and resources, to buy another new boat.

We're all supporting the class in one way or another and despite a load of snobbish anti laser mentality, it's still the best class for guaranteeing that you have lots of people to play with with as near identical boats as makes no difference.

I wasn't (I am one of them) and as it turned out, Peaky wasn't - I just thought he was.

You're dead right about the vital role the sailors of old boats play and the strength of the class, IMHO. Cheers
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 15 at 10:27pm
Hey Chris, no problem. I should have been clearer in my post.
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 15 at 12:41am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by piglet

Replica sails do not carry any logos and are clearly identifiable...


Do you want to rethink that statement?

they don;t have the class logo 

they don;t have the laser  sail label and/ or button 
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 15 at 8:30am
All of the replicas at our club DO have the class logo

The only way to distinguish them from the real thing is the makers label at the tack - not easy from any distance

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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 15 at 1:22pm
Hard enough for the RO telling a Radial from a Standard imo
Happily living in the past
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