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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Why that should be when the problem currently exists with 100s of 1000s of Lasers worldwide I don't quite understand...


In the case of our club it used to be very unusual for Laser sailors to swap rigs, but its started happening more often, especially since the Rooster rig. It was already a focus of a concern and we were already thinking about whether there should be a policy change, even though our Laser rig swappers are yet to win a handicap series. The arrival of a first Aero at the club, owned by a sailor who has won series in recent seasons has made it desirable to confirm or change our current policy. The debate is complicated because another of our recent handicap series winners is one of those who sails a two hander when he can, and a singlehander (in which he's demonstrably faster) when no crew is available and he must.

Edited by JimC - 10 Mar 15 at 2:32pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 2:36pm
Probably only a problem at one or two clubs and on this forum. I'm pretty sure that having boats where the rig can be swapped isn't going to either save or kill dinghy racing. Its simply fine tuning what happens in handicap racing.
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 2:45pm
I can see your (potential) problem being mirrored at WSC, Jim.

Already one of our Blazes (luckily not one of the quicker ones) has a Fire sail which he switches to on windy days (and gets the PY), while a quite handy sailor is buying an Aero with two rigs.  

If they don't start winning, no problem - fingers crossed!
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 2:57pm
Could someone who is from a club where this is an issue please do some empirical work to ascertain whether this is a real problem or not.

Simply re-score one or two series in several ways:

- using handicap for largest rig used throughout whole series
- using handicap for the rig actually sailed on the day

What difference does it make to the series results?

My suggestion - offer prizes for both versions of the series, but make the series in which boats that stay in one class throughout is the most prestigious.
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Posts: 246 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 3:22pm
For all of those clubs who allow rig swapping, but use the handicap of the fastest rigs. ie if a sailor chooses to switch to a Radial from the usual Standard Rig on their Laser/Kirby because of conditions, they will still be scored with the Standard handicap.

You do adjust this for your returns to the RYA dont you?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 3:30pm
In our clubs evening series last year the best Laser sailor would drop from 4th to 5th if his Radial was handicapped as a standard rig, but in that particular series there was a big gap between 5th and 6th.

It seems to me, though that the real problem *is* perception. I know I always say look at the numbers to see what's really happening, but if Joe Budgetsailor perceives that Ritchie Richkid in the next berth is going to beat him every light wind day simply because RR's got a bigger rig up, and every heavy wind day because RR's got a smaller rig up, what happens to Joe's enthusiasm?


Edited by JimC - 10 Mar 15 at 3:31pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 3:53pm
JimC - I totally agree.

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Posts: 192 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodbotherer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 4:16pm
Honestly is this really the pursuit of the richie rich kids these days? They all have to have something about them or they wouldn't be dingho wallers, but I don't think in all my time I've ever come across a more mean, miserly bunch of tight wads in a leisure pursuit, was it invented in Scotland I wonder.

I used to despair at the GP14ers, but this thread ffs! It's just a second rig, if done properly it should be just a second sail, if only your collective designers new their arse from their elbows when it came to sail and mast design. Why the idiots that designed my EPS decided in their genius that to change rigs you need an entire lower section rather than design a smaller sail for the one rig, or design a sail with a mast extension to accommodate a light wind sail if the standard is to be the smaller rig or a smaller top section, hell it's not rocket science. On a 6 mtr mast you should be able to accommodate from 7.5 to 9.5 easily with a bit of boom and batten pockery.. Just go a bit hi aspect for the small rig and low for the big one.


Edited by Woodbotherer - 10 Mar 15 at 4:18pm
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gordon1277 View Drop Down
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Posts: 665 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 4:30pm
So what your saying is I should be allowed for light airs to be able to fit a large square topped mainsail with extra luff say adding another 2 square meters to my phantom and a Solution sail when its windy?

All of the standard handicap ( With my skill level I need all the help I can get to sail to that).
Can you imagine the abuse if I used them for the sail juice series.
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 15 at 4:37pm
For us, it seems that it is our better sailors who are doing the rig swapping, whereas the less experienced sailors are generally sticking to single sails. This is what has brought the issue to the fore and why we are thinking about it before it becomes an actual issue, hence the enquiry as to what other clubs are doing.

Personally I'm far more tolerant of less experienced/capable sailors doing rig swapping, but my intuition tells me it is a slippery slope if better sailors are doing it because it will just reinforce the perception that you need multi-rigs to be competitive. The very same principle is used for the giving of equipment to the best sailors - irrespective of whether there is any actual advantage, people start to perceive there is an advantage in having the equipment that the best sailors use. Also better sailors should be far more capable of handling overpowered rigs.

Anyway, as the OP, I do recognise the need to be pragmatic and recognise that the actual differences are probably not as high as we might fear.  However the perception problem is a worry because this is a far more insidious risk. Still not sure what is the right answer from the debate so far....


Edited by rb_stretch - 10 Mar 15 at 4:47pm
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