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fab100 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 May 12 at 9:52am
Originally posted by JimC

I'm curious about something... The poor old Solo is taking a slating here as being supposedly the epitome of hopelessly outdated boats that should be superceded, but I don't see an awful lot about how it should be replaced.

Why don't you guys see if you can get a consensus as to how it should be replaced/updated? However lets put just one limitation on that: the general performance profile, speed in light airs relative to strong winds, handling and so on mustn't change, because that must be a major factor in its current popularity - increasing slowly but steadily since at least the 1980s. I shall be very interested to see what you come up with.

Well the answer is easy. A solo. Because people sail it because it provides great fleet racing, can be sailed both by pros and my hero Charlie (in his latter eighties with 2 artificial hips). It's easy to maintain, simple to rig and wheel about and has a manageable and adaptable rig, which combined with the hull means it can be enjoyed over a very wide range of crew-weights. It has stood the test of time, if anything gaining in popularity over the years. No I don't sail one, no vested interest here.

Why does it need to be replaced FFS? Because it offends GRF? that sounds like another tick in its box to me.

Grmph is very good at cranking us all up, but we do need to remember that he is a kit retailer (so pursuading us to buy stuff we don't need is in his DNA) who in his 8 years has, as haroosh points out, never mastered any dinghy, but is perpetually full of pathetic excuses. As many of us have mastered the same craft, that says far more about him than the rest of us.




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Roger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Peaky

Tickle, that Lightning anecdote is a perfect example of the dilema. That's great for the individual that they can win in an old boat, buy it's not good for the class as there appears no need to waste money on buying new. Without a need to buy new, the class won't grow. 
 
 
Sorry can't let that quote go...
 
You are making a missguided assumption that people only buy new to go faster and win. I agree with your second point about needing a flow of new boats, its about the reason why that occurs.
 
Plenty of people will buy new simply because having a new boat means they will not have to spend time working on it or repairing it, or because having a new boat means everything will work, be efficient, and you dont need to re rope/ change worn out blocks etc.
 
There can additionally be financial advantages to having a new boat on a regular basis, a new sail for a lot of singlehanders is now upwards of £750, and could be £1000, buy the new boat complete and sell last years, the net cost may only be £500 - £1000, and for a lot of people thats quite acceptable.
I'm sure many of us remember the days when it was cheaper to trade in your Laser for a complete new boat than it was to buy a new sail.
 
One of the great success factors of the Solo is that if you look at the top 10 or so, virtually all of them have a new boat every year (many are in the industry anyway) but this means a steady flow of quality second hand lightly used boats for those who want such, and a steady flow of new boats coming from the builders.
 
 
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Peaky

I don't want to sound like an evangelical loon, but my point is to question whether the model for dinghy racing is sustainable. I fear not.

I don't think you risk sounding like that, but there are other wider factors at play here, so you can't push it all back on market intransigence.

- critical mass: other than specific pockets of activity in more affluent (maybe committed) areas, new products don't generate class racing at local level, so the new offer is never as good as the established one once the 5 minute wonder of something different has worn off.

- product development: I heard on Radio 4 this morning an interview with Sir Jonathan Ive, a chief designer at Apple.  He said, 'we don't design products for ourselves, we design them for our customers'.  I wonder how many of the initial churn of the RS100 fleet felt they got a bit more kite than they anticipated?  Or that the two rigs thing would have been better as one rig, a halfway house with a consistent PY and club racing structure?  From a personal POV, I even changed clubs to help build a small fleet of 100s, but the truth was the new pond was just too damn small for it, and it's not a 'small pond' by typical inland standards, about 150 acres iirc.  Combined with the situation where every time I won (well was first 100 on extracted results) it was put down to having a bigger rig... I was 30 fecking kilos heavier than some of them!!!    The party line has changed and we now hear about it being a 'windward leeward weapon' or a 'one trick pony' depending on your point of view.  And what's the alternative... the D1, even more kite albeit with a bit more leverage to hold it down.  But given half a chance their fledgling fleet disappear off into the back and beyond in the Welsh valleys for the windward/leeward racing.  Fair enough, but travelling for class racing isn't on everyone's agenda, especially if there's a viable option somewhere where you can leave the mast up and drive home within half an hour.

- general demographic: the kids can't afford new, so by the time folks who can afford new they've gone through the it has to be new and cool phase, or are returning to the sport, therefore don't mind a bit of nostalgia.  I think we get to an age where just want something that works, offers good racing and doesn't depreciate like a used condom if we need to release the capital invested.  Established classes, old and new depending on where you sail, offer this and I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. 


Edited by pondmonkey - 24 May 12 at 10:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:11am
Originally posted by Peaky

I don't want to sound like an evangelical loon, but my point is to question whether the model for dinghy racing is sustainable. I fear not.


You are at risk of that.
Its your model of dinghy racing that isn't going to work, a hotch-potch of revisited design concepts every few years that never achieve critical mass. Making things just slightly better or just more fashionable looking with no great advantage in performance or enjoyment is not going to create any new classes. It takes step change, like the realisation that a singlehander with a kite is a lot of fun, or the acceptance of asymmetrics to make change worthwhile and differentiate a new generation of sailors.
The model of racing what's out there until something offers better racing is alive and well.
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I luv Wight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:23am
I've spied a new prototype single hander locally doing sea trials..
The rig is a bit different, but it looks like a nice moderate design.

http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:24am
You can decry my sailing capabilities all you like, all that does is confirm the status quo of you all being sad old pseudo elitists who have convinced yourselves or let yourselves be convinced that by all your years of slogging to master the crap you ride around in, you are somehow superior to anyone wishing to come along and join you.

Now I've watched you, sailed amongst you, even seen the 'sailing deities' at first hand get themselves butt f**ked on global TV, and here is the news, you aint anything special, all you are, are sad old buffers struggling to master ill conceived and badly designed garbage or old dross because there is nothing else.

True I sell stuff for a living, but so far have resisted the urge to ruin another hobby by commercial involvement and I'm not sure I could afford to make a difference. I do know this though, the RS100 clearly demonstrated a desire by lots of folks for a nice new manageable single hander which offered a bit of additional excitement with a kite. It looked the part, was affordable, but sadly suffered the same issues of being beyond the average helm and not much use round the cans. The elitists once more couldn't resist the trend of appealing to the upper echelon where sadly there is no market other than give them a ride, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but unless someone of my average helming skills and time availability can get into whatever it is you're offering (and get back into it if I fall out) it's not going to be a product with mass appeal and will have the same lifespan of boats like the 700, the 300 and the 600. Now Roger Tushingham was a fair helm in his day, did an Olympic campaign in a Flying Dutchman, tried his hand in a 600, he's now in a bath chair next to a bloody Solo, a man with considerable means to spend on something like an RS100 but was canny enough to spot the likely problems that I missed.

So maybe the answer is still something like this V-twin, but not quite the monster it turned out, or a cut down Aura, built to visually appeal but with the caveat of being easy to use, so the commercial appeal of a new trendy product can satisfy both the desires of those already in the sport coupled to attract those that are not.
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:31am
Originally posted by I luv Wight

I've spied a new prototype single hander locally doing sea trials..
The rig is a bit different, but it looks like a nice moderate design.

Piccies? Or it's not happening.. Wink
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tickler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:38am
Hey! leave young Mr Fuller alone. I think he was planted on this forum to keep us wound up and talking. I think he is a bit like the Stig.....no one knows who he is, is this years GRF the same as last years GRF? It was quite common for newspaper column-ists to be called 'Cassandra' or somesuch and a new journalist to take over from time to time. I always thought Fiona Richmond was a man.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:41am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Now Roger Tushingham was a fair helm in his day, did an Olympic campaign in a Flying Dutchman, tried his hand in a 600, he's now in a bath chair next to a bloody Solo, a man with considerable means to spend on something like an RS100 but was canny enough to spot the likely problems that I missed.

Maybe he's just sailing it to get decent fleet racing?  
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 10:46am
Originally posted by I luv Wight

I've spied a new prototype single hander locally doing sea trials..
The rig is a bit different, but it looks like a nice moderate design.

Rooster Project X?
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