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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by ex laser

Originally posted by Rupert

Judging by the prices that are charged for dinghy sailing beach holidays, the sport of dinghy sailing isn't dying, just changing. The 1950's model of lots of small clubs scattered around doing their own thing, either handicap racing or class racing, is struggling. Personally, I like being a member of a small club, but the politics of it all wears me down occasionally.

I really can't see how that has anything to do with how heavy boats are. I also have no real idea what the solution is, and reading this thread hasn't helped one bit in finding out.

Fab100, your are really on fire today - loved the postings!


well said Clap Clap   could not agree more!

+1 we've lost members, but we've also gained them... The gains have been in the class fleets- mainly the Laser and we've have folks moving across from 49ers and 700s to join the class racing on offer.  

The net figure might still be a lose, but it would be far worse if the classes hadn't maintained something that still remains attractive at its core.  
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by G.R.F.

 
That was forty years ago, things have moved on apace since then, there have been all manner of composite constructions, ally honey comb, nomex honeycomb, styrofoam core, epoxy sandwich over styrofoam, abs over epoxy over styro foam, there are still 4 mtr craft that are thirty years old weigh under 18 kilos and quite capable of being run up the beach, it's just a sad fact that your/our market will never support the volume that would justify the production expense to produce what we're looking for.

Then again unless there is a culture, that demands it, why bother? All the time everyone is perfectly happy to think 40 kgs is light, then it's game on for these pathetic 'garage' construction systems to continue. 

Grumpf, I have to agree about the need to make the sport user-friendly, but that's not going to achieved by burning all the old boats and forcing people into 16k GBP/$25,000 US or AUS carbon lightweights.

The lightest dinghies around (for their size) are the Moths, the 12 Foot Skiffs and the NZ R Class. They are lighter for size than boards and extremely expensive because there is no minimum weight (apart from the 12s which are about 45kg and heavily loaded). The 12 Foot Skiff bare hull costs over $20k AUS/US, which is thousands more than the 16' 505 hull, and 505s are hardly a low tech boat for poor people. It's fantasy to say that dropping minimum weights would not make boats extremely expensive - a 20,000 US dollar bare hull is not exactly cheap for a 12 foot boat!

If the "4 mtr craft that are thirty years old weigh under 18 kilos and quite capable of being run up the beach" are boards, as I suspect they are, then they are a totally different kettle of fish. Boards are inherently smaller and more lightly loaded and that lets them work despite construction that is inferior in many ways.... that's not better construction, it's basic physics.

My longboard fleet includes two customs built by Rick Naish and Harold Iggy for Robby; the bronze-medal winning Lechner from Barcelona, and two German built Mistrals. They are top class examples of board construction, and yet not one of them could take the loads imposed by a boat's rigging. They are not better than boats!

You can't ignore the factor of size and squaring rules. Take the IMCO and its dimensions of 3720 x 630 x approx 200, 235 L and 15kg. Compare it to the Laser, 4200 x1390 x approx 320, 840l volume (very, very roughly) and 57kg.... turns out that the Laser is about only 7% heavier for its size despite being a couple of decades older, and more durable in use.

You can't compare boards to boats any more than you can compare the weight of a car to the weight of a motorbike. A Pro Stock drag bike has a similar wheelbase (counting bars) to a Formula 1 car but only weighs 40% as much - does that mean that F1 technology is crud? No, it just means that one thing is inherently skinnier and lower and therefore weighs less.

I can't find any reason to say that boats are inferior in terms of things like rig technology. The fact that you are complaining about mast bend v luff curve is, to be blunt, ridiculous, because boat sailors often spend many hours working on those factors on and off the water, whereas boardsailors just tend to buy what they are told and crank it to the recommended settings no matter what the conditions. FWIW I reckon board rigs have gone backwards in terms of user-friendliness and wind range in some ways over the decades - they are certainly very heavy compared to what they could be.

Funny thing, y'know....when I was looking up the length of drag racing motorbikes I noticed how tight the rules are - in many ways, much tighter and more restrictive than in many sailing classes. Some sailors keep complaining that sailors have restrictions against development, but I have yet to find a sport with equipment of comparable cost that has such an excellent range of restrictions, from almost unlimited classes to very tight ones. And guess which end of the scale actually gets the sailors....

 
Lots of good facts that debunk a number of GRFs opinions ... I know he won't take any notice of anything dinghy sailors tell him but perhaps there is a small chance he'll take some of the above on board ... but then again probably not ... Confused
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:39pm
I agree with Rupert's post above.
I would add that weight has to be limited or dinghies get very expensive to build or very fragile, or both.
Just where that limit should be set is a matter for debate.
In Merlins it's 98kg for the hull, centreboard and some of the string.
Many of them are carrying over 10kg of lead.
But it is a formula that works to make a class with a hotly contested circuit, several big events and healthy new boat sales.
It's racing that sells racing boats.

If you look at the graphs in Bethwaite's books, you can see that achievable weight loss would result in significant percentage speed increase. Read across the drag/speed curves for different all-up weights. Then think about the improved acceleration. This train of thought applies particularly in the lighter wind ranges, but also at speed.

If I were handicap racing or designing a boat for fun, I would be looking very, very hard at getting the weight down on a proven hull shape.
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Slippery Jim View Drop Down
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Posts: 586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:44pm
What about taking a proven hull shape e.g. '9er or MPS and then getting crew weight down? That's what I'm doing now... Wink It's a lot easier and takes less time... Clown  Assuming we've not the crew weight in those calulations... Shocked

Edited by Slippery Jim - 23 May 12 at 1:48pm
Pass the skiff, man!
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.


Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Laser EPS - 63.5kg - must of been it's weight that people didn't like then.

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Is that it's all up weight?
And a Farr 37 all up is what? Oh and with the additional weight I'll have to add to sail with you? Which presumably someone will have to pay money to make correctors to add additional weight? Seriously dude you couldn't make it up it's so stupid.
I pay money to make it real light, then because y'all are so parsimonious or 'just don't care' I'll have to pay some more money to make it heavy enough to race with you.
Have you any idea how just plain stupid that sounds?


seriously... weigh your EPS and then tell me its 63.5kg. From what I remember the foam wings filled up with water and got heavier and heavier over time.

A conservative estimate on the all up weight for a 3.7 would be:

Hull (with fittings) 50kg
Mast (carbon C-tec) 5kg
Wire standing rigging 0.3kg
Boom (carbon C-Tec) 1.5kg
Board (stripped cedar) 2.5kg
Rudder (carbon) 0.5kg
Stock (carbon) 0.5
Sails 5kg

65.3kg

I'll weigh it all and get back to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:49pm
Which is what the Icon did...

Removing weight from a singlehander is arguably less important cos you've already shed 75kg. Good righting moment is where a singlehander can benefit.

I tried to buy the Aura, but got sent packing before I'd even mentioned a price. I think the fact I wanted it for parts didn't go down well!

One thing I do agree with Graeme on is the lack of innovation in the sport. And lack of adult support.   
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 1:58pm
The icon is 87kg all up.
That is not bad, in a last-century way.
But you have to remember it has also shed the spinnaker, so you might as well ditch the crew as well.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Peaky


One thing I do agree with Graeme on is the lack of innovation in the sport. And lack of adult support.   

There's plenty of innovation, what there isn't is commercialisation for it.  As it stands, the industry fails to engage the consumer with enough interest to deliver something that is innovative enough to make us want to switch.  Even at an elite level, where the same market constraints really don't apply, the sailors voted for the 49er with a girly rig, rather than the other options presented.  At least they got what they wanted, whether they come to regret that decision is another discussion entirely.

Even when you do get pockets of liberal thinking, the industry has responded by doing what it wants, rather than what the customer wants.  Take the RS100- enough initial interest, backed with some reassurance from a popular brand, but when sailed at a small locations racing around cans, the 'one trick pony' just losses its wow factor when its beaten over the water by a Phantom, or in some extremely sad instances, a Laser.  The solution... travel around the country and come to class events.  They've just decimated their customer base, even if that wasn't the intention.

We are in a macro-conservative economy now, folks are far more cautious about spending out on big purchases and 10 grand toys are big purchases.  If the industry really wants to push the innovation agenda, then I think they're going to have to look for new emerging markets, without the legacies we have that will invariably hamper 'progress' here for any new entrants.  The alternative is to look at the cost reduction market... we've seen sailors switch from more expensive (running & depreciation terms) down to Lasers and there must be a 'better option' surely?  Rooster Project X... the money didn't stack up I take it.

Sure they start with a bit of shed, but they buy new sails, new tiller extensions, XD systems and get engaged with the brand, and more importantly, the class racing ethos.  They then potentially upgrade to a new boat when the trade-in deals get announced.  I know a few of our members are looking forward to the autumn when the Olympic boats get released for general sale... it's a cyclically business model and from a quick glance looks to be the most successful out there in terms of retaining sales and after market revenues.  Which is why it bemuses the hell out of me as to why it isn't more commercially sustainable.... 


Edited by pondmonkey - 23 May 12 at 2:33pm
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 2:40pm
So here is a question for you GRF: do you throw out your PC/ipod/TV/car/trousers/whatever and buy new every time a slightly updated version comes out? Perhaps you do.

But sane people don't. They wait until the old one breaks beyond economic repair, slows to a crawl from software updates (PC), granny wills them some money or they can afford a new one, many updates down the line.

What does not happen is that as soon as Apple/Intel/BMW releases a new model, everyone is obligated to bin the old one and buy new. But this is what you are advocating. Yes, you could perhaps build a laser or RS200 shaped boat in carbon et al for half the weight and twice the price. But you would destroy these highly supported and completive classes for no tangible gain. The racing would be worse not better, as you would lose most of your people, and quite right too. For what, so the gullible could all go 7.89% faster around the course? So what? No one cares. Its about the competition not the speed. So grass roots support and momentum are what drives the market. 

This is basic economics and will not change even if you personally gift every household in the country the £15k on the proviso they buy your wonderful new lightweight super-boat (that most of us will hate 'cos the racing will be cr@p). And repeat every 3 years thereafter, insisting they give the old one back as it too is now useless.

Unlike branded clothing, the selling USP does not come from being the latest, trendy thing, but from almost the opposite, the strength of the existing network. And building a network from scratch in an already widely diverse market is a huge ask. All the cards are stacked against. This is why the industry is like it is - it has to deal with the world as it, not as you think it should be. 

So as I said yesterday, get yourself a Moth. And if it does not suit your current club, get in the car and drive somewhere else where it does. But be warned, even in a Moth you will need to hike hard to be competitive with the guys who know what they are doing.
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 12 at 2:59pm
if anyone wants a fag packet business plan to make money out of this industry...

Design a low cost, low maintenance, slightly more modern boat like a Laser.  Iron out a couple of the niggles by putting on decent cascade kicker, no need for fancy brands here (white label chinese will do) and a centralised mainsheet.  Make it slightly more modern in appearance and ergonomics to not breach any copyright.  However, and this fundamental, make sure it is hull form is NO FASTER than a current new Laser- both top end and acceleration.  

Here's what you do next... get your production costs and a multi-route supply chain ready to ship €3000 complete- including a basic trolley.  Primary units on direct shipment with commission to local agent, spares and ancillaries via agent on conventional distribution/sub distribution basis depending on the territory.

Now get your local agents to market like hell as a boat to race 'alongside the Laser' in club racing and a cheaper upgrade alternative.  Run light hearted open meetings which also allow Lasers to join in- inclusion, inclusion, inclusion.  Offer to trade in used Lasers against new sales.  What trade-ins aren't re-sold domestically get shipped to emerging markets, with a new sail, new brand identity, for knock down rates/cost to build global presence. 

What you've effectively developed is product that does not breach copyright, (you're not selling a Laser) but retains a one design ethos, addresses legacy issues with the current Laser and has the opportunity to develop a new identity it own right, all at a price point consumers will tolerate.  

I'd also say keep the disposables like sails disposable- but charge a realistic price for them so folks who sail regularly enough are happy to buy a couple sails a season to maintain tip top performance.  A runner will spend £100 on a pair of new trainers every three months or so.... that's what you are competing against.
 
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