The RS400 Rumours thread.

Originally posted by turnturtle Mikey I think it's quite easy to justify; especially when the Rooster sails are allegedly inferior in quality and obviously don't carry any proportion of the overall running cost LDC incur to keep the RS400 an active, well attended class at international, national and club level.

I thought that was what the Class Association was there for.

All reports I've heard suggest that Rooster sails are of very good quality. Didn't you have one once ?

Does the RS400 class assoc. not have a technical officer who could answer these questions?

OK, just caught up with this thread - I had read the early part to it some while ago and was frankly interested to hear views - developments to SMODS is a thorny subject and never one to be taken lightly. Development can either make or break a class.

But there are 3 issues being discussed here it seems in need of comment from RS Sailing:

1. RS400 development:

The class is 16 years old and unchanged. That is good going and the class is enjoying continued popularity. There is nothing planned. so it is all rumour! Although over the years we have had 2 general types of suggestion: Firstly update the appearance of the sails and probably acheive a cost saving in the process - this was successfully acheived with the RS300.

Secondly effectively launch a new class (moving performance on a huge chunk) with the same name - relegating all existing 400s to a "classic" fleet - all opens and championships would have 2 starts. Apart from marvelling at the "off the wall" thinking, we did not think too hard about this one - he was an ex 14 sailor!!  

We do of course listen to any genuine suggestions that come from the class, and spend time ourselves throwing ideas around.

2. The cost of RS400 sails: 

Turnturtle has quoted prices and we are not expensive - especially as the kite is far larger than the comparisons: We run a summer offer for circuit and championship sailors offering upto 12.5% off a suit of sails - we ran it last year and details are soon to be released for this summer.

The cost of MSB the 200/400/600 material has risen as volume of use has reduced, so yes the sails could be made more economically. If we used the Vision mainsail material (gitter), it would be less expensiver, but not as good: I am almost certain this is what the Rooster sails are made of. It is still a very functional cloth, and looks almost identical, but has less fibres between the mylar, and the mylar film is slightly thinner. The class actually has asked us to do the sums on modern materials and this will be done this autumn. The 300 class are a good model, but I suspect the potential savings are more modest. Something may come of it, I could not second guess it. 

I understand that we make similar direct margins to the UK sail makers, but they have the risk (not cost, as taken into account in the margin comment)) of having to have a sail loft and infrastructure. In a climate of selling fewer new boats, income from sails and spares is essential to ongoing promotion and support of the class:

Although independant, and now very healthy, the Class Association is heavily supported by RS Sailing, and does not rely on volunteers to an onerous degree to conduct its affairs. Owners and members are I am sure of the multiple benefits of a healthy association.

All RS classes are promoted to our dealers around the world - we spent a fortune trying to get the RS400 kickstarted down under - despite huge effort also from RS Australia it has had modest success: We have however just sold a container load of 400s to Honk Kong. At dealer prices we have ****** all to play with, but it is a step towards the class moving international which again helps the class and owners - and is only fully justified by ongoing spares and sail sales.

The RS400 has been at every London Boat Show for 16 years. Every Dinghy show also, which incidentally we man and pay for - not the Association. this will promote the class and benefit the owners. 

Sometimes I think it might be easier to grab a set of class rules, grab a jockey and make some sails - or hey why not just make replica Smod sails and have no costs at all!

3. SMOD replica sails 

Anybody who does not actively own a SMOD, and possibly thinks all SMOD manufacturers are the devil incarnate will think they are great. Anybody who values the one-design ethos, an active association, and an active class manufacturer who is on the same side will think they have no place outside of training establishments or holiday companies.

It is such a well documented discussion it barely needs revisiting.

Nick.

 

Yes I did say (last year?) that I thought the cloth in the main was inferior to the original main. I might have to modify that comment in the light of how well it has lasted. It is the opinion of a mere amateur sailor. Perhaps Mr C would care to tell us about his cloth and why he chose it.

The Rooster kite is lasting well. One of my 'official' kites seems to be not lasting too well, it's probably quite old, but has not been used much, as both we and the previous owners of our boat kept it for best while beating some other kites to death!

Jib cloth is all the same to me.

To return to the point, I think we should ask GRF to name his sources. Maybe he is a student of Hunter Thompson, who once wrote about an unpleasant rumour regarding a US presidential candidate, nobody else seemed to be aware of the rumour. When later forced to defend this, he said something like, 'it's true, there is a rumour, I started it....'

Now, an after market turbo-nutter rig for the 400, there's a concept... We could use the Gemini class name perhaps?

interesting thread.....

think you're on the right track Nick if you do look at updating the 400 sail plan... it's fashion & function after all.

If you look at a couple of one designs that (& yes - they  have evolved with time) like the Lark or B14..

The lark has a fairly one design hull (mk1-4 etc. accepted) but when their owners buy sails, they get the latest thinking, cut and cloth... they pay similar (maybe less) than the SMOD classes but they get a more evolved product. (and some choice of flat or full depending on weight - which has to broaden appeal to a wider audience - although not to all tastes). And they get "better" sails every time they buy them!

The B14 has a fairly one design hull (again, poly rondar's,  epoxy ovi's - accepted) and they have had to deal with the issues of mast supply by going to carbon....  But they retain the OD status..
Look at a B14 today and they look awesome, and they go better than they used to, and support a wider weight range....When the b14 sailors buy new sails they get absolutely fantastic looking sails, in the latest cloth, of the latest design.... and they don't pay that much more (£300 than a 4000 / £500 more than a 400 -ish)  than a SMOD sailor has to pay - but just look at what they get!! NO COMPARISON - IMHO!

My perspective on the SMOD classes is that they are locked in time (and the fashion of that time) - and that's a bit of an issue... they could go the 49er way & reviewed their sail plan every 4/few years or so... everyone would know whats coming - the tender process for people to supply would encourage some competition for selling prices to be kept low - the boats would continue to look desirable and - yes  - to stay at the front of the fleet you'd need to buy new rags - but who doesn't need to do that to stay at the front anyway!
Sails are consumables - and buying something that looks nice, performs better than the last set has got to be more rewarding than paying out each year for the same "OLD" things.....

Now when the 4000, 400 etc were launched - their sails all looked similar... and fairly Gucci in their day... but unfortunately they all look dated now - admittedly the 400 less so than most. 

So if they do a sail upgrade on the 400 or any of the other SMOD'd - bloody good job i reckon - it'll look great again, like it used too...

and before anyone comments..... - yep - i hate buying the same old firefly sails - although at <£500 a set it's not so tough... i couldn't get a 4000 kite for that!