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Olympic 'finals' proposal

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Cheeky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cheeky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Olympic 'finals' proposal
    Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 4:57pm
Fair dues...

Originally posted by gordon

Cheeky...


The Firefly still is a single-hander - there is an annual single-handed
event and I believe that you can compete in all events as a nautical
onanist - as long as you sail alone in all races


Dragon - those who can afford it are  sailing the ex-Olympic boat
rather than other classes


Sharpie - at least they have international events


THe 470 was INTENDED as a popular boat - but then poor class
management did little to protect the grass-root saolors


Aluminium is re-cyclable - Stars can continue sailing using recycled
metal from broken masts topped up with re-cycled beer cans (or vote for
a carbon mast.


FDs and Tempest - never popular in GB where sailing is increasingly
seen as a sport for small competitors


The crew may think a lot is happening on a 49er (I am sure cricketers
think they are very busy) but for the spectator there is not a lot going
on


 


Gordon


 


 

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Harry44981! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Harry44981! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 5:21pm

There is an active tempest fleet at Ullswater YC- I've certainly seen quite a few racing when I go there.

I know that it only applies to Olympic classes, but most things will be adopted by the class authorities etc., like olympic courses, more than 1 race a day etc.

Even though there are double points for the last non-discardable race, it would still be possible for the race to be decided before the last race. For example if someone had a 20 point lead, then even if they dawled around 5 minutes behind everyone else came 10th and got 20pts, and the guy in 2nd got a 1st, and 2pts, then he would still win. try explaining that the guy who came last by a mile wins the event to the non- sailing public, it's not as simple as it appears.

That would be a very rare case but it would be quite likely that the guy who comes 5th wins the gold, with the guy in 6th awarded a silver, and the race winner getting a bronze for example, wehich to me defeats the point of it. I think the system is fundamentally flawed-malthough I may have misunderstood the scoring.

Also what would an OCS, DSQ, DNC or RTD score? 21 points, 22points, in this case the gold medalist needent evn come to the starting area, or could sail through the line with 50 secs to go, and keep going towards the boat park????!!!!

I believe that the Olympics should represent slightly the sport we devote our time and money doing, so the sailors can be entertained by situations they understand and can relate to, and the public can have an insight into small boat racing.

 

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gary145 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gary145 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 7:06pm

wow this is going to get messy!

double points for the last race has been tried before at one of the first ISO nationals. I remember the idea was to try new courses and systems for scoring for this revolutionary class.

As it turned out a good sailor won the event but the best sailor of the week didn't

It was a shame for both of them as the winner was clearly embarrased at the prizegiving and the guy that should have won had to settle for a place.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Starbuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by Bumble

...... why would anyone want to compete in a class where the only way to be the champ is to become a pro sailor and devote 5 years to a potentially fruitless campain.

Becoming "the champ" is surely a very small reason for choosing to sail a particular class. The vast majority of the sailors in ANY class will never be the champ.  

People may want to compete in Olympic classes to have the opportunity to race against the some of best sailors in the World and raise their game accordingly; maybe for the purpose of returning to non-Olympic classes later and being much more competitive.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cheeky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 11:58pm
At the risk of being controversial... I'll use the 400m as an example. the
athletes run several heats and then semis which determine there lane
draw for the final race. Lanes in athletics can have a major advantage, you
could compare this to the weighting of the new IOC / ISAF proposal going
into the final race. All sorts of things can go wrong in that final athletics
400m race, from a crap start to gear failure ( pulled muscles ) to an
outsider beating you, the weeks inform favourite. Why should sailing be
any different. When it comes down to it the last 4 years of the athletes life
are boiled down to one death or glory race. the pressure is on, and true
champions shine under that pressure and Win. Is everyone here saying
that for some reason sailing is a higher form of sport that requires a
unique approach. It is true that sailing involves a fantastic amount of
knowledge, some have said on this thread, scientific. What arrogance to
suggest that other sports do not extent themselves to these higher
understandings or tactics. should we now decide the 100m on the
averaged results of the heats and semis or is athletics for the
unintelligent, tactically and scientifically unaware sports man or woman. I
think sailing and sailors need to wake up and smell the coffee. Modern
sport almost with out exception at the Olympic level stretches the athlete
to extremes in many more disciplines than just the chosen racing activity,
Sailing is no special case in that respect. And should in my opinion move
closer to other sporting formats regardless of TV coverage or not.
There... i feel much better now.

Originally posted by gary145

wow this is going to get messy!


double points for the last race has been tried before at one of the first
ISO nationals. I remember the idea was to try new courses and systems
for scoring for this revolutionary class.


As it turned out a good sailor won the event but the best sailor of the
week didn't


It was a shame for both of them as the winner was clearly embarrased
at the prizegiving and the guy that should have won had to settle for a
place.


 

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Bumble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:04am
Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

Becoming "the champ" is surely a very small reason for choosing to sail a particular class. The vast majority of the sailors in ANY class will never be the champ.  

People may want to compete in Olympic classes to have the opportunity to race against the some of best sailors in the World and raise their game accordingly; maybe for the purpose of returning to non-Olympic classes later and being much more competitive.

Fair and logical point but people are wierd..... if they don't want to win why do they buy the most competitive kit???? ans - we are all latent dreamers trapped in the sweaty, damp wet suit of reality.



Edited by Bumble
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:19am

Originally posted by Cheeky

At the risk of being controversial... I'll use the 400m as an example. the
athletes run several heats and then semis which determine there lane
draw for the final race. Lanes in athletics can have a major advantage, you
could compare this to the weighting of the new IOC / ISAF proposal going
into the final race. All sorts of things can go wrong in that final athletics
400m race, from a crap start to gear failure ( pulled muscles ) to an
outsider beating you, the weeks inform favourite. Why should sailing be
any different. When it comes down to it the last 4 years of the athletes life
are boiled down to one death or glory race. the pressure is on, and true
champions shine under that pressure and Win. Is everyone here saying
that for some reason sailing is a higher form of sport that requires a
unique .....................balh blah blah..........

It is different. If you take the same 400m line up and get them to run the same race over and over again (under pressure/equal coditions etc) then the same guy will come out on top. Thats not saying that its not tactical, just that the fastest man will always be the fastest man. If you take a sailing line up and get them to race in a boat like any of the olympic classes over and over the same man will not always win - in fact (while there are exceptions) often a different guy comes first each time. Sailing has many other variables which saparate it from a running race and this has always been recognised.

For that reason one of the main challengers of olympic, or any yachting event, is consistency. The question should not be how can the scoring be changed to make it as easy to understand as a rowing race, but how can it best reward the consistent sailor for his efforts over the whole event.

The answer is, I think, that it can't and that is one of the reasons this thread is so long and the olympic sailing is on the edge of expulsion.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote cherkhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:52am

Lets hope the rest of sailing realises what a proposterous idea this is. Every sport is different. The reason that the 400m's has heats and semi's is so that they can fit everyone on the track at the same time, sailing does not have this problem. The problem sailing has is a lack of inginuety on behalf of the broadcasters. Whilst doing a world championships in South Africa SABC made a film of the week, with on board cameras the full works, it was broadcast in a 45 minute slot the following week and to be honest was superb.

This was not a huge budget affair, just two guys and a couple of cameras, so why they cannot do the same for the Olymics I dont know. To change sailing when you could be comanding a championships throughout the week and then break a rope, tear a sail or get holed, none of which might be your fault and your medal is gone.

When the ISAF realises that the media is not really interested in sailing because it percieves there is no interest from Joe Public then the ISAF will start to lead and not follow like lost sheep. Hopefully individual classes will not start to follow this line, or I may just retire and sit on the beach all day.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 9:11am

Originally posted by Bumble

if they don't want to win why do they buy the most competitive kit???? ans - we are all latent dreamers trapped in the sweaty, damp wet suit of reality.

To do the best they can, which is not the same as winning. One of the great things about sailing can be be mighty battles going on up the final beat between 19th and 20th place. It matters to the people involved, even if nobody else much cares.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

To do the best they can, which is not the same as winning. One of the great things about sailing can be be mighty battles going on up the final beat between 19th and 20th place. It matters to the people involved, even if nobody else much cares.

Your quite right Stefan. I fully retract my previous ramblings..... I am the only one who wants to be champion of the world.

 

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