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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-Zero
    Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 9:55am
I agree mate and to be honest the rest of the Zero fleet are fairly pragmatic about it all.  I am still not sure we have heard the full story from Graeme.  As to you position, totally the right thing to do.  The additional benefit of early adopter discount is...well kind of a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things.  I would rather hold onto my money wait to see how things pan out for the class and pay a little more for a newer sail number then have a boat sat in a paddock next to the wifes horses smelling of piss and sh*t for a year or two.


as to the whole PY debate for the *ero's  it really is a moot point (amazingly after 20 pages)  Until we see some return data.  FYI i am only happy for LTSC to keep filling out returns of 1050 for the Zero Simon!!  Bowmoor are sailing the Aero 9 off 1020  JFYI
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 9:58am

Love this photo, sure perspective has some play on things, but look at the size difference between the Zero and Halo rigs!  Wow
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Steve411 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

Originally posted by Null

Simon,
Any more photographs?  Sounds like some close racing.

Russ
Yes some close racing across all the classes.

Just sorting photos :

Ha, ha! Pictures 22 and 23 - conclusive proof of how quick Albacores are downwind...



Edited by Steve411 - 22 Sep 14 at 10:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 10:11am
Originally posted by SUGmeister

 

Would love to be able to see the results, but this is what I get.....
Even trying to use adblock to block some of those elements doesn't clear the screen.
Just saying!

I have formatted the results a bit better -  they came off a spreadsheet and all they show is finishing positions as recorded by RCYC
www.sailracer.org
Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 10:41am

The simple fact is that 'your' choice of boat, whatever that may, will not substantially change over time.  However the handicap that is applied to it can and will change.

I'm far from being a supporter of the 'loose' ands informal approach to new boat introductions with regard to handicapping.  But in the (very) long term any class will find its 'natural' number - if the 'introduction' phase is survived.  That handicap might be very different indeed to the one you anticipate or is suggested at an early stage.

My own view, is that on balance if we have to live with a less than ideal system, it is better to start with a demanding number that rises over time to meet reality.  You can still get great racing, as we do with Icon and know as the numbers adjust things will get 'better'.  Consider the alternative ... you buy into a class with an easier number and then it gets quickly tougher and tougher.  This is not to say that a modified approach for new classes is not urgently needed as many have argued for some time ... But this will take time and careful consideration.

Bottom line is you need to think long term - Never buy or sail anything you do not enjoy and suits your sailing needs.   However if your 'need' really is more for a 'good' handicap number then just admit it and don't go for any new class and expect an easy number.  If that is your key driver look towards the long established classes, buy the best example you can and benefit from the dilution of that 7/8ths of the class 'iceberg' that are less good, with older slower examples everywhere.  These are the ones that haunt the back of many a local handicap fleet, don’t do championships, Sailjuice and rarely if ever  do  Opens  -  they are now your 'new best friends' and will ensure you enjoy that 'elusive' good number for a long long time. 

This is of course the result of a system obsessed with AVERAGES and basic club returns rather than one which is weighted towards POTENTIAL of each class to do well.  Of course it disadvantages new classes and you could hardly devise a better mechanism to do so if you tried.    Very often new designs are sailed by very capable crews as well, such is life.  They quickly show the potential of a new class and vice versa they will not be demonstrating the likely 'average' when later sailed by regular helms.   Peter Barton in the Aero and Dan in the D-Zero are naturally quick sailors .. and if YOU can learn to sail like them there should  be few problems at all with the PNs used at Southampton on Sunday.   After all suppliers are not going to show off their 'latest kit' with average crews on the stick at early outings !

But this perhaps unintended (if now institutionalised) bias is what we do face today.  So DON'T avoid any decent (mostly) modern boats simply because they have to face a period of PN 'pain' would be my own suggestion. 

I'd rather be idealistic about what I sail than be idealistic about its handicap number.... and just maybe then start lobbying  for a change in handicapping that ‘levels’ the field  by weighting  the results from  the FRONT of every single class ... in other words is biased towards the potential of boats universally for all classes rather than the far less useful crude average.

Mike L 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Null



Love this photo, sure perspective has some play on things, but look at the size difference between the Zero and Halo rigs!  Wow


Look at the size difference between the Zero and Mirror rigs!

Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 10:47am
Originally posted by blaze720

The simple fact is that 'your' choice of boat, whatever that may, will not substantially change over time.  However the handicap that is applied to it can and will change.

I'm far from being a supporter of the 'loose' ands informal approach to new boat introductions with regard to handicapping.  But in the (very) long term any class will find its 'natural' number - if the 'introduction' phase is survived.  That handicap might be very different indeed to the one you anticipate or is suggested at an early stage.

My own view, is that on balance if we have to live with a less than ideal system, it is better to start with a demanding number that rises over time to meet reality.  You can still get great racing, as we do with Icon and know as the numbers adjust things will get 'better'.  Consider the alternative ... you buy into a class with an easier number and then it gets quickly tougher and tougher.  This is not to say that a modified approach for new classes is not urgently needed as many have argued for some time ... But this will take time and careful consideration.

Bottom line is you need to think long term - Never buy or sail anything you do not enjoy and suits your sailing needs.   However if your 'need' really is more for a 'good' handicap number then just admit it and don't go for any new class and expect an easy number.  If that is your key driver look towards the long established classes, buy the best example you can and benefit from the dilution of that 7/8ths of the class 'iceberg' that are less good, with older slower examples everywhere.  These are the ones that haunt the back of many a local handicap fleet, don’t do championships, Sailjuice and rarely if ever  do  Opens  -  they are now your 'new best friends' and will ensure you enjoy that 'elusive' good number for a long long time. 

This is of course the result of a system obsessed with AVERAGES and basic club returns rather than one which is weighted towards POTENTIAL of each class to do well.  Of course it disadvantages new classes and you could hardly devise a better mechanism to do so if you tried.    Very often new designs are sailed by very capable crews as well, such is life.  They quickly show the potential of a new class and vice versa they will not be demonstrating the likely 'average' when later sailed by regular helms.   Peter Barton in the Aero and Dan in the D-Zero are naturally quick sailors .. and if YOU can learn to sail like them there should  be few problems at all with the PNs used at Southampton on Sunday.   After all suppliers are not going to show off their 'latest kit' with average crews on the stick at early outings !

But this perhaps unintended (if now institutionalised) bias is what we do face today.  So DON'T avoid any decent (mostly) modern boats simply because they have to face a period of PN 'pain' would be my own suggestion. 

I'd rather be idealistic about what I sail than be idealistic about its handicap number.... and just maybe then start lobbying  for a change in handicapping that ‘levels’ the field  by weighting  the results from  the FRONT of every single class ... in other words is biased towards the potential of boats universally for all classes rather than the far less useful crude average.

Mike L 

I think that is what the Great Lakes numbers attempt to do, isn't it Mike (look at potential rather than average)?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 10:48am
Click to view image full size

Love this photo, sure perspective has some play on things, but look at the size difference between the Zero and Halo rigs!  Wow

Null .... If you stood the respective helms next to the rigs in play you might actually find the ratios were not dissimilar at all.   Matt (in the Halo) would possibly need 2 x Zeros (one for each foot !).  (The weight difference between say Matt and Dan/Peter is about the all up weight of at least an Aero and even possibly a Zero !)

I also think you lot may have been watching just too many episodes involving 'Craggy Island' - keep taking the tablets ! Wink  

Mike L.  


Edited by blaze720 - 22 Sep 14 at 10:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 10:59am
I think that is what the Great Lakes numbers attempt to do, isn't it Mike (look at potential rather than average)?

Hi Steve

Exactly - but they only factor the published 'official' PN's with their analysis ... you can be pulled up or down relative to the 'official' PN.  This is a good half-way house but many of us would like to see a proper overhaul of handicapping and much more weight given to the results of the Sailjuice series type events etc.  Averaging of a very large but less than appropriate sample arguably, as with the PN does not do the full job required - the core 'average'  stuff is still buried in there !  Sample size in itself does not measure potential.

But the PN 'ice' is cracked by the GL approach ... and its use is spreading really quite fast.  Let there be bolder moves forward in the future.    

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 22 Sep 14 at 11:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 14 at 11:15am
Originally posted by rich96


Is it just me or does the Zero look miles better than the Aero in that photo (rig, boom angle, hull) ?

Just you perhaps. Its funny this enthusiasm for droopy booms. Aerodynamically and (especially in a singlehander) ergonomically its a nonsense of course, but we're all so used to looking at boats with drooping booms on older classes because the mast rake used now is so much greater than that the rigs were designed for. Butits amazing the extent to which what we are used to defined what we regard as good looking.
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