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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: R Speculation
    Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 11:04pm
We do the same as DD' s club. We have a couple of people who have sailed different boats within the same series. I for instance have sailed my 700 on days where my daughter couldn't sail the Grad due to evening races or clashes with her other activities. We have one guy who has an RS800 who also owns a Buzz which he tends to sail when it's breezy. As a club we'd rather see people on the water having fun, rather than sitting on the site for fear of breaking stuff.
An interesting point is that we don't have a big Laser fleet (only a couple of regulars) which in my experience tends to cause the biggest tension with people swapping around between radial and full rig. I think if we had Laser fleet racing then we'd have to potentially be a bit stricter but for handicap racing, who cares?
For info I used to sail in a Laser fleet at a club up North who employed the one rig for a series rule and was happy to reinforce the rule when there was good fleet racing.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 11:34pm
genuine question- is it the helm or boat that's entered into a series?  

If it's a one design fleet, then I accept the logic of stopping switching- even if this wouldn't be my preferred approach; however in handicap racing if the series scores the person, not the boat, as long as the correct handicap is applied to relevant boat sailed, surely the point of the system would be to enable switching boats whilst still testing sailing ability against the collective averages?


Edited by kneewrecker - 25 Sep 14 at 11:35pm
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Blue One View Drop Down
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 14 at 12:30am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Blue One

Am old and boring!


Ha, the very last thing I had you down for was old.

Everything is relative, Re age. Compared to " Jeffers" I am an old man, compared to you I am just a teenager.
Re boring, I bow to your sage knowledge as you are the expert on this subject.

Edited by Blue One - 26 Sep 14 at 12:37am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 14 at 12:46am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

genuine question- is it the helm or boat that's entered into a series?  

If it's a one design fleet, then I accept the logic of stopping switching- even if this wouldn't be my preferred approach; however in handicap racing if the series scores the person, not the boat, as long as the correct handicap is applied to relevant boat sailed, surely the point of the system would be to enable switching boats whilst still testing sailing ability against the collective averages?

But if one is free to choose the boat that gives an overwhelming advantage in the weather of the particular day, it's not really a test of sailing ability.

FWIW I don't really believe that it's a fair test if a big-rig Laser sailor can swap down to a Radial rig in a big breeze, because when it's windy enough the Radial is actually quicker, and therefore if one had two sailors of identical ability the one who spent the extra cash to have a Radial rig lying around would have an advantage.

The analogy with the yacht switching to a smaller headsail or a boat not using a kite isn't correct IMHO, because in those situations the fact that the boat can change sails is accounted for in the handicap, whereas that isn't the case with the typical single-sail dinghy.

I actually created a beginners/kids/storm rig in a SMOD class I ran so I'm not against them per se, but having access to one should not become an advantage IMHO as that gives those with deeper pockets an edge. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 14 at 2:02am
Originally posted by kneewrecker


genuine question- is it the helm or boat that's entered into a series?

By default it's the boat, but it's conventional in small boat racing to change that in the SIs or NOR, I forget how. If you think about Americas cup and the like it makes sense for the boat to be the entity that has the score attached, but if we are talking about the West Eastport-on-sea club laser the prizegiving might be a bit confused...
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Jeepers View Drop Down
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Posts: 147 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jeepers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 14 at 7:31am
There seems to be two camps emerging here....

Pro sail changing on grounds of increased scope for enjoyment

Anti sail changing on grounds of fairness and equality

Probably warrants a separate thread - a poll even?
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 14 at 8:05am
I couldn't careless if i am honest, as long as its in the class rules.  They are the rules i will observe.  I do like the idea of picking a weapon for the day, but in practice i am not sure its really that fee-sable in the UK.  The amount the wind can change ove the coarse of a day is amazing.  i am sure we all have plenty of tails of starting in a drifter and then finding ourselves in a glorious F4 sea Breeze.  Well for some small people its a big gamble selecting a bigger rig.  In my opinion much more of a gamble then a big guy choosing a smaller rig.  Historically i would of always said with a swagger of Bravado that I would use a big rig in any weather.  Sadly after sailing my brothers Phantom in the top end of a F4 i was grossly over powered, to the point it was not enjoyable!  

Anyway, i believe the Aero will be 3 different classes.  However what interests me is how that is split in terms of boat orders?  As an example has the 9 actually sold 50 boats or 250 of the 350 total???  Because at the moment we are being told 350 boats have been sold, but actually that's 350 of a different class cross section.

Also If its 1 class and you pick your rig then great, that a pretty unique concept albeit i should imagine it would piss a few people off.  However if it is to be 3 classes, RS really need to make the sails more defined in terms of class split.  Otherwise i can see the same problem the 100 had in the early days of just 1 PN.
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 14 at 8:19am
The three aero PYs will enevitably end up a bit of a mess due to rig switching at club level that goes unnoticed. I think many clubs will struggle to do three separate returns. 

I think it's clear that RS have deliberatly made all the sails near identical to allow/support this. 
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 14 at 8:30am
It is simple in my mind. 3 rigs 3 classes, exactly the same as the 4.7, Radial and Full Rig Laser (but they are not aiming at that market remember).

RE: Rig swapping This is fine but my view is that as you are sailing a different class you should get distinct sets of results. Each Clbu will have their own rules though (which is fine).

If you are 'class' racing them use the rig appropriate to the class. This will likely end up like the Laser at most club where the Laser 'fleet' is made up of Lasers of all rig options racing boat on boat so use the sail appropriate to the conditions (so a lightweight could use a 9 in light airs and a heavier weight could use a 7 or even a 5 when the breeze is on).
Paul
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 14 at 8:38am
In terms of Lasers, it would surprise me at all if a fairly large % of the "Laser" returns are in fact for Radials. The only way for this not to happen to the Aero is for the boats to actually use the number when they are signing on. By extension, I would then expect people, when asked what they sail, to say "an Aero 7", a bit like you might say "a Laser 5000". I just can't see that happening.
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