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V Twin

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: V Twin
    Posted: 22 May 12 at 8:45am
Well as I might have said previously I built an all kevlar boat once, a powered race boat for water ski racing where weight was important since we were racing in a restricted power class, it was too flexy and it literally fell in half as we nosed over the first wave (We were both in our work suits at the time we'd taken it out for a quick try out during our lunch break)
That was forty years ago, things have moved on apace since then, there have been all manner of composite constructions, ally honey comb, nomex honeycomb, styrofoam core, epoxy sandwich over styrofoam, abs over epoxy over styro foam, there are still 4 mtr craft that are thirty years old weigh under 18 kilos and quite capable of being run up the beach, it's just a sad fact that your/our market will never support the volume that would justify the production expense to produce what we're looking for.

Then again unless there is a culture, that demands it, why bother? All the time everyone is perfectly happy to think 40 kgs is light, then it's game on for these pathetic 'garage' construction systems to continue. I've not weighed this twin, but i nearly bust a gut hauling it up onto its side part of the reason it's holed and scarred is due to its sheer weight (and probably the additional water on board from what looks like a previous hole).

I'm not sure what to do with it now, what I'd like to do is take it to someone professional with the instruction cut it about and lighten it up, so if it did ever go over again I'd have a half decent chance of righting it and it might get on the plane with less than 14 sq mtr of sail area.

As I see it, there is way too much deck material, which was obviously an expedient way of getting it built, but is superfluous to making it go, if the two side tanks were able to flood, it wouldn't be such a problem and less likely to turtle. It needs a jib track and a few other changes to make it easier to actually get on with the job of sailing without niggling stupid things going wrong, the last time I actually sailed it, I got off at the gun and was making half decent progress against the fleet until I got the wrong side of a shift and then the kite just candled and failed to open then one of the sheets that had been mangled by the rescue boat on a previous recovery just fell off, so rightly it is back for a thorough overhaul and refit.

I really enjoy sailing it, it's such a challenge, probably too much going on what with a jib, main and kite to control, but there is room for someone else, so I've either got to make it lighter, or admit I've made it too big and rig it up with either an 800 or maybe a 49er rig and go see what it's really capable of.


Edited by G.R.F. - 22 May 12 at 8:47am
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 8:55am
You'd go to monolithic glass - any sort of sandwich picks up more damage. About 4mm solid glass would be needed to match the stiffness of 8mm cored laminate.
That would be near 7kg per m2 as against 1.6ish for 200gsn carbon on 8mm 80kg foam so about a 20kg weigh delta on a cherub hull.
There would be another 8 kg for going with triple layered gelcoat for easy repair over spray paint finish.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 8:55am
Originally posted by JimC

 
Mmm, I wonder how you'd specify a boat for bouncing off shingle... presumably it would have to be high density foam for dent resistance, and then something seriously kick ass for the outer skin on the bottom and at least past the chines... I suppose kevlar is an obvious choice for dent resistance, but I should think you'd want a few layers of glass on top of that just to give you something you could refinish readily without too much yellow fluff. The skin would have to be so ridiculously overbuilt for the beach bouncing that you wouldn't need carbon in there for strength. Its a lot of weight, that's for sure, because you'd need to run the heavy layup way past the chines in order to stop them chewing up. Probably getting close to doubling the weight of the shell I should think...

Or...

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L123456 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 9:17am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

...probably too much going on what with a jib, main and kite to control, but there is room for someone else, so I've either got to make it lighter, or admit I've made it too big and rig it up with either an 800 or maybe a 49er rig and go see what it's really capable of.
 
Seems like a starting of acceptance that some of your design choices in the first place were poor  ... what comes next I believe is denial followed by anger ...
 
The design had a huge surface area so was ALWAYS going to be heavy ... the panel weight can only be shaved so much.
 
Plus the super stable design was ALWAYS going to be super stable upside down and as such a complete liability.
 
Throwing sail area at this project will do little to improve performance; many on here will concur that adding sail area adds little to performance. This will also make your inversion problems more likley.
 
When is it time to stop wasting your time with this and learn to sail one of the many many proven designs already on the market?
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 9:30am
Originally posted by L123456

 
When is it time to stop wasting your time with this and learn to sail one of the many many proven designs already on the market?

That time is never going to happen all the while they are old, flawed, and generally not fit for purpose imv.

I found this quote next to a post of Jimbo's on the other forum the other day, i thought it was eminently appropriate...

Ever tried, ever failed,no matter, try again, fail again, FAIL BETTER: Samuel Beckett
LOL


Edited by G.R.F. - 22 May 12 at 9:31am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 9:34am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by L123456

 
When is it time to stop wasting your time with this and learn to sail one of the many many proven designs already on the market?

That time is never going to happen all the while they are old, flawed, and generally not fit for purpose imv.

I found this quote next to a post of Jimbo's on the other forum the other day, i thought it was eminently appropriate...

Ever tried, ever failed,no matter, try again, fail again, FAIL BETTER: Samuel Beckett
LOL


Quite agree. BUT, learning from the failure is pretty important, too. I should imaging your project has shown you that maybe, just maybe, there are reasons why some very clever people have designed or built things as they have?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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L123456 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 9:41am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by L123456

 
When is it time to stop wasting your time with this and learn to sail one of the many many proven designs already on the market?

That time is never going to happen all the while they are old, flawed, and generally not fit for purpose imv.

I found this quote next to a post of Jimbo's on the other forum the other day, i thought it was eminently appropriate...

Ever tried, ever failed,no matter, try again, fail again, FAIL BETTER: Samuel Beckett
LOL
Hmmm ... I thought I had spotted some green shoots to learning & recognition  in your post but seems you are firmly stuck in the denial stage ...
 
 
 
As you seem to like a quote here are a couple more Wink
 

Experience keeps a dear school, yet fools will learn in no other. BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

If at first you don’t succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it. W.C. FIELDS
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Pierre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 9:43am
Originally posted by L123456

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by L123456

 
When is it time to stop wasting your time with this and learn to sail one of the many many proven designs already on the market?

That time is never going to happen all the while they are old, flawed, and generally not fit for purpose imv.

I found this quote next to a post of Jimbo's on the other forum the other day, i thought it was eminently appropriate...

Ever tried, ever failed,no matter, try again, fail again, FAIL BETTER: Samuel Beckett
LOL
Hmmm ... I thought I had spotted some green shoots to learning & recognition  in your post but seems you are firmly stuck in the denial stage ...
  
As you seem to like a quote here are a couple more Wink
 

Experience keeps a dear school, yet fools will learn in no other. BENJAMIN FRANKLIN

If at first you don’t succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it. W.C. FIELDS

Are you civil servant perchance....?    Wink
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robinft View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote robinft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 9:48am
All things considered (age, size, weight experience etc.), have you considered a Weta 4.4?
Check out its handicap. It's quick, stable and once once you've got over the slightly wacky colour choices it ticks more boxes than anything else.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 12 at 9:52am
Time is life- use it wisely Graeme Fuller @ Sailing Anarchy

Enjoy the EPS and trade it for Blaze when the time's right.
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