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    Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 7:52pm
I dunno. There are similarities. Lots of kicker stretching the sail on the Aero. But the cloth is undoubtedly better. How long do OK sails stay competitive?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 15 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by Chris 249



Originally posted by Chris 249




[QUOTE=rich96]The lightweight laser sails needed to be changed for major events (regardless of what is/was claimed). They were hopeless in that regard.

unless you're talking about the sails from the '70s and early '80s, Laser sails don't "need" to be changed unless you are in the top few percent of the fleet, and by definition few are.
Some of us have cubes that indicate that we may not be fools when it comes to Lasers, and I'm not sure we're liars when we say most people don't need to change sails as often as some say.....



Exactly my point - the upper end of the fleet changed sails very regularly - you don't do that in many classes.

In most classes you don't find club racers also changing their sails as often as you do in the Laser fleet (those that sail most weeks).

There will no doubt be some examples that disprove this but essentially its fairly accurate to say that Laser sails are changed more than many other class sails.

No sure what "liars" have got to do with it (?) but my point is simple really - Laser sails don't last very well if used regularly. Its not really news to anyone.



 
When you say "regardless of what is claimed" on a subject that has been the subject of so much discussion here it can appear that you're dissing the views of other posters.
 
There's lots of reasonable viewpoints on the topic IMHO, since none of us are really defining what we mean by "need replacing" or "don't last". Does the average sailor really "need" a new sail when they are normally starting poorly quite often, missing shifts, capsizing and generally losing much more time due to mistakes than due to their old sail?  Does a former champ really "need" a new sail when they are low on form due to lack of training?
 
And when Olympic medallists and world champs are on form they can use an older sail and still win against good 'amateurs', so arguably the older sail is lasting as well as it needs to. In every class I know, sails a few years old can get to the top 13% of the title pack -  even in Lasers, years ago my brother had just 1 borrowed sail and one new sail throughout a career that took him to a national Youth title and top 25 in the Open Standard worlds.
 
Sure, some people get lots of new sails but in every class there are people who just love spending money and some of them say that Lasers are so cheap to run there's no reason not to get new sails regularly.
 
Surely similar issues apply to the *eros, and to any discussion about how long sails will last in any class.
 


Edited by Chris 249 - 19 Feb 15 at 10:08pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 3:55am
I think, too, that we can assume that sail design has progressed a lot since the Laser rag was designed. The biggest problem I see with all short batten sails is batten end distortion, and although Laser sails do it quite badly I have seen some quite dreadful laminate sails. Indeed I believe the National 12s changed their rules because they were experiencing problems. I believe that aspects of sail design have at least as much to do with durability as material choice.

So all this really does seem to be quite ridiculous speculative knocking. As I've said before I'm quite sure that RS picked the rags that came out as best in their development programme, and if dacron rags came out as better it would be pretty damn silly to fit laminate ones now wouldn't it...

And if they wanted the cheapest possible material then AIUI the sails would have been monofilm, not Dacron, and if they had picked that I bet any number of people would probably be saying how wonderful and forward looking they were.



Edited by JimC - 20 Feb 15 at 3:58am
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 7:55am
The voice of reason. 
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 9:04am
Originally posted by JimC

and if dacron rags came out as better it would be pretty damn silly to fit laminate ones now wouldn't it...

Not really, not in the 21st Century, not when your business model is in marketing and distribution and your brand positioning is one that has historically been considered quite forward thinking (for a mainstream SMOD manufacturer anyway).  

By his own admission Martin Wadhams stated that it took a lot of convincing for him to accept that dacron was the way to go.  There's a reason for that, and a reason some people think sumilar.  RS didn't just drink the Kool-Aid of plastic sails, they brewed it... and there's some very fine vintages still around.

But I accept your sentiment, and if dacron proved the best material to accommodate the broad spectrum of sail sizes the Aero is being offered to market with, then fair enough.... a bit of forum chitter-chatter to the contrary is an acceptable trade off, and quite frankly surely not without expectation and pre-loaded rebuttal.  

NB: I also agree that quite a bit of time and design will have gone into this sail, and it's certainly not constrained by 1970's design and manufacturing as per the Laser sail.    As for mono film .... cheap nasty stuff, I have it on consumable (cheap) wave sails, but my next 'race' sail will be made from a mix of ODL04, ODL06 and Pentax.  





Edited by turnturtle - 20 Feb 15 at 9:06am
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Rupert

Yes, but you seem a little fixated on the idea that you can compare it to the Laser sail and get meaningful info.

A slack rigged Firefly sail is going to be as valid a comparison to the Aero as a scaffold pole Laser rig.


Read what was said earlier - "Dacron sails on stayed masts (Contender and lots of other two man boats) can remain competitive for a good while.

They also can on an OK - unstayed rig. So if the Aero sails and rig generally are up to the sort of technical level of an Ok rig they may be fine - if they are mass produced like the Laser there may be issues. Time will tell ? "

I was simply stating that if the rigs are better than the laser sails/rig they may be fine but if there are similar to Laser rigs they wont last as long as others. This may simply be due to the weight of cloth ?.

Comparing OK rigs to Laser rigs is probably not really relevant - there is so much more that has gone into the OK rig sail development and the cloth is not similar.

The second part of your post is irrelevant - comparing a Firefly rig to a Laser ?. I. spreaders, stays no doubt heavier cloth etc etc - chalk and cheese and already covered in my initial post above.
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 11:43am
Originally posted by JimC

I think, too, that we can assume that sail design has progressed a lot since the Laser rag was designed. The biggest problem I see with all short batten sails is batten end distortion, and although Laser sails do it quite badly I have seen some quite dreadful laminate sails. Indeed I believe the National 12s changed their rules because they were experiencing problems. I believe that aspects of sail design have at least as much to do with durability as material choice.

So all this really does seem to be quite ridiculous speculative knocking. As I've said before I'm quite sure that RS picked the rags that came out as best in their development programme, and if dacron rags came out as better it would be pretty damn silly to fit laminate ones now wouldn't it...

And if they wanted the cheapest possible material then AIUI the sails would have been monofilm, not Dacron, and if they had picked that I bet any number of people would probably be saying how wonderful and forward looking they were.









Edited by rich96 - 20 Feb 15 at 11:44am
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Chris 249





Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by Chris 249



Originally posted by Chris 249




[QUOTE=rich96]The lightweight laser sails needed to be changed for major events (regardless of what is/was claimed). They were hopeless in that regard.

unless you're talking about the sails from the '70s and early '80s, Laser sails don't "need" to be changed unless you are in the top few percent of the fleet, and by definition few are.
Some of us have cubes that indicate that we may not be fools when it comes to Lasers, and I'm not sure we're liars when we say most people don't need to change sails as often as some say.....



Exactly my point - the upper end of the fleet changed sails very regularly - you don't do that in many classes.

In most classes you don't find club racers also changing their sails as often as you do in the Laser fleet (those that sail most weeks).

There will no doubt be some examples that disprove this but essentially its fairly accurate to say that Laser sails are changed more than many other class sails.

No sure what "liars" have got to do with it (?) but my point is simple really - Laser sails don't last very well if used regularly. Its not really news to anyone.




 
When you say "regardless of what is claimed" on a subject that has been the subject of so much discussion here it can appear that you're dissing the views of other posters.
 
There's lots of reasonable viewpoints on the topic IMHO, since none of us are really defining what we mean by "need replacing" or "don't last". Does the average sailor really "need" a new sail when they are normally starting poorly quite often, missing shifts, capsizing and generally losing much more time due to mistakes than due to their old sail?  Does a former champ really "need" a new sail when they are low on form due to lack of training?
 
And when Olympic medallists and world champs are on form they can use an older sail and still win against good 'amateurs', so arguably the older sail is lasting as well as it needs to. In every class I know, sails a few years old can get to the top 13% of the title pack -  even in Lasers, years ago my brother had just 1 borrowed sail and one new sail throughout a career that took him to a national Youth title and top 25 in the Open Standard worlds.
 
Sure, some people get lots of new sails but in every class there are people who just love spending money and some of them say that Lasers are so cheap to run there's no reason not to get new sails regularly.
 
Surely similar issues apply to the *eros, and to any discussion about how long sails will last in any class.
 





These comments regarding age and quality of kit (and that basically better people can beat worse people with less good kit) could be applied to all boats and probably all sports - not just sailing. They   do nothing to address the FACT that Laser sails do not remain competitive very long compare to many other sails.

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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by rich96

   They   do nothing to address the FACT that Laser sails do not remain competitive very long compare to many other sails.


Fact? Any real evidence for that other than "everyone knows"? Sure they don't remain competitive for long compared to proper fully battened sails, which is a good definition of many, but that's not like for like.

Has anyone ever done a qualitative test measuring performance degradation?

No numbers: no fact.

Grief, I've no idea whether its actually true, or just exaggeration, but I've seen posts on SA stating that "serious" sailors in some leadmine classes buy a new jib for *every* significant event which makes Laser sails look great...

In any case any deficiencies of the Laser sail have stuff all to do with the Aero. I don't know about the rest of you but I'm getting bored with all the tedious FUD.

Edited by JimC - 20 Feb 15 at 1:05pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 15 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by JimC

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm getting bored with all the tedious FUD.

So I shall post a reply asking for further clarity.

From a qualitative perspective (not all research is quantitive), I'd say that Laser sail does degrade faster than a number of other sails I've had on other classes.

I'd also add, that I've seen a steady second hand market for 2 year old sails in a number of classes I have owned.  Whereas in the Laser an entire industry of replica sails exists because giving up the one design ethos and buying replica outweighs the option to buy a similarly priced/depreciated used a sail for a good number of people.  

Anyway, RS Aero sails... let's see how they wear over time.  RS's other classes have usually had very good sail life in my absolute honest opinion, so maybe it would at least be less mean spirited to compare the potential wear and tear of a new RS product with previous RS products, rather than just the sail material of the ol' 1970s knee-wrecker.
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