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G.R.F. ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 06 Sep 11 at 12:20pm |
Interesting post that Jim, thanks for the clarification, so is there actually a position by ISAF or the RYA on Pro's in the Dinghy World, it doesn't appear to be so.
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Roger ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Mar 04 Location: Somerset Online Status: Offline Posts: 524 |
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The issue of professionalism in our sport is
one that has been debated for many many years as JimC says, and one to which
attitudes has changed over the years too. There are many types of
"professionals" in dinghy sailing, and the boundaries are very grey
at times. 1. There are those who work for a company and
sail the company boat, expenses are met and the sailor is effectively working
at the weekend or over the course of an event, the cost to the individual is
nil apart from their time, and they may get time off in lieu. 2. There are those who work for a company but
have their own boat, paid for out of their earnings, but have equipment given
to them to use (sails for instance, but could be anything) 3. Those who own their own boat, don’t work
for the company (have a "proper" job), but are given equipment to
help promote it, reduces their costs but they see no material benefit other
than the initial donation (or reduced cost) of the said equipment. 4. Those who own the company rather than work
as employees, they could be sailing a boat owned by the company or themselves,
and I am sure there are likely to be tax reasons as to why its done a
particular way. 5. There are those
"hired" to go sail a boat, maybe for monetary reward or sometimes
just for the free ride. Designed obviously to get certain sails, boat or
equipment to the front of the fleet, and I don’t just mean the dinghy helm, it
could well be just the crew, and they may come from either within the industry
or outside. They may bring “free” equipment with them if they have a product to
promote. 6. Some also look
to borrow/hire/charter boats so they can do a one off in a class, sometimes
this could be an initial venture into a new boat or sometimes just to make sure
their product gets good results. 7. Of course we shouldn’t forget some have their own business out of the marine industry, and use their leisure time to promote that company, event sponsorship, sail logos or boat names are the obvious route, and I’m certain there are significant tax benefits. Individual
attitudes seem to vary to the different categories, but generally my view is
that I have accepted this for many years, sometimes look on with a little envy,
but then decide I don’t want the pressure of having to perform and always wish
to maintain my individuality and freedom (I’m not good enough anyway!!! although I was once offered discounted sails
to get the manufacturer into a fleet). I also feel our sport would be a worse place without this involvement, in reality you pays your money and takes your pick. Try sailing a class which has no current sailmaker or builder and see where that goes, the choice is ours and therein lies the key, we have a choice and long may that remain. |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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AIUI ISAF/RYA leave it completely up to individual classes to decide whether and how many professional sailors are allowed to race on a boat with one exception: an Olympic class is not permitted to limit professional sailors. I don't know of any dinghy classes where this happens (but there are bound to be a few somewhere in the world, most likely the US where they seem to get especially uptight about pro sailors), I think its all larger boats. Edited by JimC - 06 Sep 11 at 12:58pm |
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Late starter ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 24 Feb 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 481 |
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Interesting thread. Re the bit about this Taxi bloke. I don't know him, but he sounds like a pretty useful sailor, and from my reading of events he seems to have sailed totally within the letter of the rules in match racing his opponent down the fleet. However, I'm not so sure this is something I'd have done myself, but then I'm a middle of the fleet club racer so I'm never likely to be in a position of needing to be so ruthless!
Re the shades of professionalism in what is essentially an amateur sport - as long as the pros are up front about their motivation than on balance their contribution is much to the positive. I think class associations can be grown up enough to realise and manage the various motivations that exist in those that sail a particular class, eg the boat builder/sail maker pros that wish to generate business through development and churn, alongside the paying public who look for their boats to have a long competitive life at reasonable cost. I think it's the mix we have in UK dinghy racing that makes it so interesting. |
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RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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If you look at the ancient history of the Merlins and Merlin Rockets, you will see plenty of championships won by Jack Holt and Ian Proctor, later joined by B. Banks...later one or two other notable 'tradesmen'.
Nothing much changes! The first two nationals were at Hayling too! |
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tickel ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 408 |
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On this topic.......I see that a certain Stephen Cockeril sailing Tasar no 44 is entered for the World Championships in Torbay......
We did suspect this when he sailed in the Scottish Champs. |
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tickel
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paolochilds ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 11 Location: Southampton Online Status: Offline Posts: 36 |
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I would have to put my shout of a top performer down for Alan Roberts, He won the XOD with Andy Shaw at Cowes in a massive fleet (With a day to spare) and then won the RS200s with James Peters. two fleets in 2 weeks both with 158 RS200's there and 145 XOD.
Two completely different classes but the same result. Class!! I also completely back Andy winning the Merlins. If you followed the results and the week, then you knew it was coming! Andy is a top bloke and a class sailor, who puts a lot into the Scorps, Merlins, Solo's all classes that would highly value him sailing I am sure.
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Paul Childs
RS Sailing Sales Team and RS100 Class Development Officer |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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You what? When I looked at the results Carveth finished ahead of him in *every* *single* *race*. |
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paolochilds ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 11 Location: Southampton Online Status: Offline Posts: 36 |
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You knew he was going to match race him... If Ainslie had done it at the olympics we would all be saying he is god. Andy managed to do it and make it stick, nothing wrong with that in my eyes!
Edited by paolochilds - 08 Sep 11 at 11:29am |
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Paul Childs
RS Sailing Sales Team and RS100 Class Development Officer |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Do you really believe that the winner of the series should be someone who finished behind the second place guy in *every race*? I have no problem with sailing someone down the fleet so that a previous poor result comes into play, but that's not what happened here.
If the PC hadn't made what at this distance looks like an error by awarding average points instead of the finishing place Carveth would have won. Davis won in spite of being demonstrably the poorer sailor at the event as a result of a very bizarre quirk in the scoring - a quirk that I think should be addressed in future. The redress decision should be appealed: I suggest the PC should at least have referred it to the RYA because it demonstrably did not produce as fair a result as possible for all competitors. Edited by JimC - 08 Sep 11 at 2:07pm |
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