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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Sep 11 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by JimC

The ISAF classification system would exclude industry pros racing in their own time using their own money. This is inevitable because of the mass of cheating and abuses that existed before the system was setup... usually with leadmine racing, rather than dinghies to be fair.

Some background: 30 or 40 years ago sailing was allegedly an amateur sport and no pros were permitted. However people who worked in the industry were welcome when sailing in their own time. So what happened was that the major sailmaking companies employed loads of "sailmakers" who never seemed to get anywhere near a sewing machine or a pair of scissors, and indeed never seemed to have to do much work at all. However in their "time off" they did an awful lot of sailing, and completely coincidentally they seemed to do all that sailing on boats that had bought complete and rather overpriced sail inventories from the company that employed the "sailmaker". Of course this was cheating, but it was also completely impossible to prove.

A few years later pro sailors were allowed. That was inevitable: after all they were out there anyway. So many leadmine classes introduced rules about how many professionals were permitted on a boat and what defined a professional. Every class' rules were different, and no-one knew who counted as a pro and who didn't and there was complete damn chaos...

So to resolve the chaos ISAF introduced their own classification rule and legislated that it was completely up to the classes what restrictions on pros they could have, but the definitions of whao was or was not a pro had to be the ISAF one. This was an improvement because everyone at least knew who was a pro or not and didn't have to try and understand SIs and so on.

But the downside of the ISAF classification is that it doesn't distinguish industry pros sailing their own boats in their own time and using their own money from paid to race sailors. There doesn't seem to be any way of doing this when you consider all the lying and cheating that went on in the amateur era.

So I for one would be opposed to using the classification system in the classes I'm involved in, but I'm certainly not smart enough to think of a better alternative bearing in mind the abuses that have existed in the past... Fortunately the boats I sail don't seem to be especially attractive to works teams...

Interesting post that Jim, thanks for the clarification, so is there actually a position by ISAF or the RYA on Pro's in the Dinghy World, it doesn't appear to be so. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 11 at 12:50pm

The issue of professionalism in our sport is one that has been debated for many many years as JimC says, and one to which attitudes has changed over the years too.

 

There are many types of "professionals" in dinghy sailing, and the boundaries are very grey at times.

 

1. There are those who work for a company and sail the company boat, expenses are met and the sailor is effectively working at the weekend or over the course of an event, the cost to the individual is nil apart from their time, and they may get time off in lieu.

 

2. There are those who work for a company but have their own boat, paid for out of their earnings, but have equipment given to them to use (sails for instance, but could be anything)

 

3. Those who own their own boat, don’t work for the company (have a "proper" job), but are given equipment to help promote it, reduces their costs but they see no material benefit other than the initial donation (or reduced cost) of the said equipment.

 

4. Those who own the company rather than work as employees, they could be sailing a boat owned by the company or themselves, and I am sure there are likely to be tax reasons as to why its done a particular way.

 

5. There are those "hired" to go sail a boat, maybe for monetary reward or sometimes just for the free ride. Designed obviously to get certain sails, boat or equipment to the front of the fleet, and I don’t just mean the dinghy helm, it could well be just the crew, and they may come from either within the industry or outside. They may bring “free” equipment with them if they have a product to promote.

 

6. Some also look to borrow/hire/charter boats so they can do a one off in a class, sometimes this could be an initial venture into a new boat or sometimes just to make sure their product gets good results.

 

7. Of course we shouldn’t forget some have their own business out of the marine industry, and use their leisure time to promote that company, event sponsorship, sail logos or boat names are the obvious route, and I’m certain there are significant tax benefits.

 

 

Individual attitudes seem to vary to the different categories, but generally my view is that I have accepted this for many years, sometimes look on with a little envy, but then decide I don’t want the pressure of having to perform and always wish to maintain my individuality and freedom (I’m not good enough anyway!!!  although I was once offered discounted sails to get the manufacturer into a fleet).

 

I also feel our sport would be a worse place without this involvement, in reality you pays your money and takes your pick. Try sailing a class which has no current sailmaker or builder and see where that goes, the choice is ours and therein lies the key, we have a choice and long may that remain.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 11 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Interesting post that Jim, thanks for the clarification, so is there actually a position by ISAF or the RYA on Pro's in the Dinghy World, it doesn't appear to be so. 


AIUI ISAF/RYA leave it completely up to individual classes to decide whether and how many professional sailors are allowed to race on a boat with one exception: an Olympic class is not permitted to limit professional sailors. I don't know of any dinghy classes where this happens (but there are bound to be a few somewhere in the world, most likely the US where they seem to get especially uptight about pro sailors), I think its all larger boats.

Edited by JimC - 06 Sep 11 at 12:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 11 at 3:36pm
Interesting thread. Re the bit about this Taxi bloke. I don't know him, but he sounds like a pretty useful sailor, and from my reading of events he seems to have sailed totally within the letter of the rules in match racing his opponent down the fleet. However, I'm not so sure this is something I'd have done myself, but then I'm a middle of the fleet club racer so I'm never likely to be in a position of needing to be so ruthless!  

Re the shades of professionalism in what is essentially an amateur sport - as long as the pros are up front about their motivation than on balance their contribution is much to the positive. I think class associations can be grown up enough to realise and manage the various motivations that exist in those that sail a particular class, eg the boat builder/sail maker pros that wish to generate business through development and churn, alongside the paying public who look for their boats to have a long competitive life at reasonable cost. I think it's the mix we have in UK dinghy racing that makes it so interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 11 at 6:38pm
If you look at the ancient history of the Merlins and Merlin Rockets, you will see plenty of  championships won by Jack Holt and Ian Proctor, later joined by B. Banks...later one or two other notable 'tradesmen'.

Nothing much changes!
The first two nationals were at Hayling too!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 11 at 8:48am
On this topic.......I see that a certain Stephen Cockeril sailing Tasar no 44 is entered for the World Championships in Torbay......

We did suspect this when he sailed in the Scottish Champs.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote paolochilds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 11 at 10:59am
I would have to put my shout of a top performer down for Alan Roberts, He won the XOD with Andy Shaw at Cowes in a massive fleet (With a day to spare) and then won the RS200s with James Peters. two fleets in 2 weeks both with 158 RS200's there and 145 XOD.
Two completely different classes but the same result. Class!!

I also completely back Andy winning the Merlins. If you followed the results and the week, then you knew it was coming! Andy is a top bloke and a class sailor, who puts a lot into the Scorps, Merlins, Solo's all classes that would highly value him sailing I am sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 11 at 11:22am
Originally posted by paolochilds

I also completely back Andy winning the Merlins. If you followed the results and the week, then you knew it was coming!

You what? When I looked at the results Carveth finished ahead of him in *every* *single* *race*.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote paolochilds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 11 at 11:27am
You knew he was going to match race him... If Ainslie had done it at the olympics we would all be saying he is god. Andy managed to do it and make it stick, nothing wrong with that in my eyes!

Edited by paolochilds - 08 Sep 11 at 11:29am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 11 at 12:07pm
Do you really believe that the winner of the series should be someone who finished behind the second place guy in *every race*? I have no problem with sailing someone down the fleet so that a previous poor result comes into play, but that's not what happened here.

If the PC hadn't made what at this distance looks like an error by awarding average points instead of the finishing place Carveth would have won. Davis won in spite of being demonstrably the poorer sailor at the event as a result of a very bizarre quirk in the scoring - a quirk that I think should be addressed in future. The redress decision should be appealed: I suggest the PC should at least have referred it to the RYA because it demonstrably did not produce as fair a result as possible for all competitors.

Edited by JimC - 08 Sep 11 at 2:07pm
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