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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Rupert

A lower wind limit. Only ever suggested by people unable to concentrate on picking up ultra light gusts and shifts. Just as much of a skill as strong wind sailing, and less weight sensitive. I've known some excellent big boned light wind sailors.

I used to go better in the light stuff, and if you've ever met me you'll know I a bit of a lardarse. Now I only think I did so well due to that principle of momentum....
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by Rupert

A lower wind limit. Only ever suggested by people unable to concentrate on picking up ultra light gusts and shifts.

To be fair, lower wind limits have also been suggested by people who see that the future of the sport is all about spectacular high-speed sailing in ideal conditions.  They are just as wrong as the people you mention, but it's a different type of wrong.
 
Sadly, I have to admit I used to advocate lower wind limits for a while as a teenager, for the exact reason you give....it just took me a while to admit that.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by rb_stretch

Anyway there is actually a solution to this that has been used for windsurfers for years - a lower wind limit.

What effectively destroyed competitive windsurfing, lower wind limits, then minimum wind speeds, brought about 1 champion for decades, and reduced participation. Parents taking kids to events and nothing happening didn't see them returning too often. It's what killed the Formula Class.

Worse thing you can do meddling with the weather, it's the one element everyone has to accept.

Absolutely right GRF, a few years ago I trekked all the way to Ullswater one sunny Sunday to be greeted by a perfect 5-6 knot breeze..... racing was cancelled because the f*@!ing Formula boys thought it was too light for their 6 knot minimum. No surprise that Raceboard attendance is 4-5 times that of FW these days (but, sadly, too late to save windsurfing club racing).

I raced the Blaze in a drifter on Sunday, battered old original Sobstadt sail, original centre mainsheet, never sailed the beast before.... Had a lovely afternoon, came last in the handicap fleet but was improving by the end and finished in front of the Enterprises and L2k over the water. New sail tomorrow and off the boom sheeting ready to fit..... I'll do better next week (except it's forecast to blow its t!ts off, more in the boats comfort zone but well out of mine)......


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 14 Nov 16 at 9:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by Rupert

A lower wind limit. Only ever suggested by people unable to concentrate on picking up ultra light gusts and shifts.
lower wind limits have also been suggested by people who see that the future of the sport is all about spectacular high-speed sailing in ideal conditions.

There's also the practical point that if tidal stream strength is approaching wind strength then navigation is more or less impossible - and there may be other considerations. If, for instance, your racing fleet has to cross a chain ferry then you do not want to be sailing in conditions where its impossible to get out of the way.
But ultimately the object of the exercise is to have fun. If a fleet/club decides that racing below a given wind strength is not fun, and they'd rather be telling tall tales over a beer in the dinghy park, well, who are we to argue? I can recall a fair few occasions when a fleet cheered when the abandon flag went up, but not any when they sighed or booed...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Rupert

A lower wind limit. Only ever suggested by people unable to concentrate on picking up ultra light gusts and shifts.

To be fair, lower wind limits have also been suggested by people who see that the future of the sport is all about spectacular high-speed sailing in ideal conditions.  They are just as wrong as the people you mention, but it's a different type of wrong.
 
Sadly, I have to admit I used to advocate lower wind limits for a while as a teenager, for the exact reason you give....it just took me a while to admit that.



+1 Every sailor has his day, the big guys do well when it blows, the lightweights in marginal conditions and the wily old salt  (regardless of weight) when it's light. If we could just get over ourselves and accept we have strengths and weaknesses (both skill and physique related) we might just enjoy the racing whatever the weather.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Originally posted by Rupert



But heavier sailors can switch to the bigger the earlier than lighter sailors as the wind drops.


And as the wind gets lighter, the lightweights can also have the big rig. Most heavy sailors will need the biggest rig in up to 20 knots. Below that lighter sailors can start changing up as well. Most sailing conditions mean that the big sailor is only ever using the one rig. Hence they don't get the advantage of multi rigs.



 that's the issue  ... 

someone who is  fit enough and  has good enough technique can hold onto the  same rig as  the 'fatties' even if they are a stone or two underweight   and   any losses  upwind  are made back off the wind 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

#JohnJack, Obviously doable but pretty complex to get working reliably I'd have thought? And pretty much all dinghies have the facility to de-power with rake, just not on the water (or at least during a race). And it's probab;y less effective than same as changing for a significantly smaller (or larger) sail (especially as you have the same rake adjustments available with the smaller sail).


I believe the single string rake is now pretty mature in terms of development. The Merlins did it first IIRC and other classes that allow on the water raking have followed.

such is the nature of the beast  -  and why the N12 and the MR  are  the basis of  a good number of derivative  ODs    (Lark, RS200, RS400 to name just three off the top of the head  never  mind the   stem / forefoot design to maximise lwl and  basic hull forms)


Edited by zippyRN - 14 Nov 16 at 10:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 11:08pm
Originally posted by zippyRN

Originally posted by rb_stretch

Originally posted by Rupert



But heavier sailors can switch to the bigger the earlier than lighter sailors as the wind drops.


And as the wind gets lighter, the lightweights can also have the big rig. Most heavy sailors will need the biggest rig in up to 20 knots. Below that lighter sailors can start changing up as well. Most sailing conditions mean that the big sailor is only ever using the one rig. Hence they don't get the advantage of multi rigs.



 that's the issue  ... 

someone who is  fit enough and  has good enough technique can hold onto the  same rig as  the 'fatties' even if they are a stone or two underweight   and   any losses  upwind  are made back off the wind 

True but the fitness/strength/power to weight issue is separate matter, a fit small guy will beat an unfair one as a fit big guy will beat an unfit big guy, sailing skill being equal. The extra fitness allows the sailor to make better use of his weight when it's windy and be more agile around the boat when it isn't, win win. 

IMHO multiple rigs are not the issue, you might as well ban boats that suit lightweights because if a heavyweight tries to race one he's at a disadvantage. If it bothers you and you are a larger gent then buy a boat that suits your physique or go on a diet (big skinny guys win out both ways). The handicap's will work themselves out in a couple of years and if the Aero settles on one class with three rigs or a single multi rig class it will be reflected in the returns.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 16 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by Rupert

A lower wind limit. Only ever suggested by people unable to concentrate on picking up ultra light gusts and shifts.
lower wind limits have also been suggested by people who see that the future of the sport is all about spectacular high-speed sailing in ideal conditions.

There's also the practical point that if tidal stream strength is approaching wind strength then navigation is more or less impossible - and there may be other considerations. If, for instance, your racing fleet has to cross a chain ferry then you do not want to be sailing in conditions where its impossible to get out of the way.
But ultimately the object of the exercise is to have fun. If a fleet/club decides that racing below a given wind strength is not fun, and they'd rather be telling tall tales over a beer in the dinghy park, well, who are we to argue? I can recall a fair few occasions when a fleet cheered when the abandon flag went up, but not any when they sighed or booed...

Completely valid points, both of them. The "but" is that experience seems to say that if a class are deciding whether to have a higher wind minimum, then they should accept that years of experience indicates that it appears to hurt class numbers. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 16 at 7:47am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by Rupert

A lower wind limit. Only ever suggested by people unable to concentrate on picking up ultra light gusts and shifts.
lower wind limits have also been suggested by people who see that the future of the sport is all about spectacular high-speed sailing in ideal conditions.

There's also the practical point that if tidal stream strength is approaching wind strength then navigation is more or less impossible - and there may be other considerations. If, for instance, your racing fleet has to cross a chain ferry then you do not want to be sailing in conditions where its impossible to get out of the way.
But ultimately the object of the exercise is to have fun. If a fleet/club decides that racing below a given wind strength is not fun, and they'd rather be telling tall tales over a beer in the dinghy park, well, who are we to argue? I can recall a fair few occasions when a fleet cheered when the abandon flag went up, but not any when they sighed or booed...


What you are describing is a PRO making a decision based on local conditions as to whether racing is practical. This happens everywhere already, usually after a discussion with whoever is in charge of the event from a class point of view. It may be that with your strong tide in one venue, a class minimum of 4 knots, say, would still have them going backwards, whereas on a small puddle a zephyr or 2 a would see a nice, if knee aching, tactical battle, and the 4 knot mind would ruin that.
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