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Twenty years from now

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getafix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Twenty years from now
    Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 6:35pm
im not so sure housing is a driving factor, there are lots more rental properties in Europe but my colleagues in France and Germany don t appear to be taking more holidays (apart from the mass of public ones) or sailing more, in fact I'd say UK dinghy sailing is still deeper and had higher participation than elsewhere in Europe?

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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 6:52pm
CHris 249,

"I wonder how much smaller the sailing world would have been if it wasn't for Jack Holt, Haylock and Beecher Moore".

Great - someone recognising the part this trio (and you could well have added in Dusty Miller, foreman at Bell Woodworking to the list) played in the expansion of the dinghy racing scene. For the Holt centenary in 2012 and then more recently for the Merlin Rocket book, I have enjoyed unrivalled access to the Holt family and their own material. What is key to the story was the unpleasant treatment meted out to Jack by the International 14 class and some of our premier clubs in the pre-war years. Jack was denied access to the clubs because he was considered an artisan (though the same distinction was NOT applied to Uffa Fox). Jack Holt believed that the sport of dinghy sailing/racing was far too important to be left in the hands of the elite who made up the numbers back then. So, if you look at Jack's philosophy, it was all about the democratisation of sailing, "boats for the masses" if you want the short version. Interestingly, a lifestyle survey held in the late 1950s identified that boat ownership was the number 1 aspirational wish for people as the years of early post war austerity slipped into history.

There is an identifiable sub-plot to all this that suggests that over the last 30 years, top down policy making in the UK has all be about the creation of a sailing elite - more on that in Part III of the series of linked articles. Let us not forget that Ian Proctor played his part too, will the 'powers that be' even bother to recognise his achievements in a couple of years time, when it is IP's turn to enjoy centenary celebrations.
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Rat Man View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rat Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 7:10pm
The problem is that as you guys & girls spend hours discussing what you are going to be sailing, the real question remains, Where are you going to be sailing..? Club memberships continue to fall, the numbers of active competitors / members continue to fall, clubs are buoyed up by the long term members (who probably sail a solo now) these people sit on the committees, maintain the club, mow the grass & in twenty years they wont exist as we'll all be working until 70 to pay off the mortgages on properties that aren't worth the price we paid for them...
The really interesting part comes from water authorities that will kill clubs off for 2 reasons. 1. In an increasing commercial world, rents will increase at the same time membership revenues reduce causing a shortfall. 2. In corporate responsibility world its good for these commercial water authorities to have a 40-50 boats splashing around, it shows the government that they are engaging with the public and providing a facility however when these numbers drop below a critical point, for example 10-20 it all becomes difficult to justify. In short we're all doomed....
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winging it View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 7:20pm
my club membership isnt falling, and we are buoyed up by family and youth memberships, but I think we are an exception.

I actually think that what will kill off the small clubs, no matter how healthy their membership, is the fact we are no longer allowed to use herbicide to keep the weed at bay.  Weed has become our biggest issue.  Big clubs with deep water will survive, but keeping it at bay is massively expensive and time consuming for smaller clubs.

Invasive species will also become more prevalent and might limit travel to opens etc.

we are indeed doomed.
the same, but different...

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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 7:40pm
My clubs membership has been pretty constant for the last 20yrs. We aren't on a lake so no weed problems and our
youth are actively involved in training newbies. I can however see that some of the more historically prestigious clubs are struggling due to local water board, other lake users, and a lack of family social scene and the dreaded weed and blue green algae. In truth though I don't think it will impact clubs as much as some of you think.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by chris_wht

Originally posted by Chris 249

 they can get a skiff on an interest-free loan, store it for free, get free beer, and get paid $250 just for starting a club race on it.

You can? Right, im on the next flight... 

Yep. Belmont 16s paid out over $500,000 in 'sailing expenses' last financial year, including giving members up to $2,500 to buy a skiff (so a skiff crew may get a $7500 gift, which is enough for a good older boat, AND they can get an advance on prize money on top of that), paying entry fees to championships, subsidising regatta travel, etc. Club membership is (IIRC) $20 but they pay the national authority fee so effectively people from other clubs could make a tiny profit by joining one of the Skiff clubs.

I think Belmont and Manly both currently pay around $250 each time a 16 starts, plus a similar amount for every handicap or club championship win. I'm not sure if the free beer and BBQ at Belmont is on every week, but it may be. Of course, it all comes from the 31,000 social members who go to the clubhouse to use the various bars, restaurants and one armed bandits.

And yet, with all that and fleets of high performance boats, most kids STILL drop out of sailing, which seems to indicate that the reason for the drop out cannot be that the boats are too slow, the club too small and nerdy, the water too restricted (most Skiff clubs sail on bays that are miles wide, while one effectively sails on the open sea a lot of the time) etc etc etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Life isn't all that bad for these poor impoverished kids that have to buy houses a 5.5 times salary. People were asking regularly for that amount of mortgage back in the 90's. 

... because they knew that prices were rising and rising!  And they were right!  Not a valid comparison Tongue


And there's help now...

http://www.helptobuy.org.uk

"Help to buy" ?  Give me a break.  Help to people who banked their retirement on the housing market by propping up prices at the bottom end more like.

All help to buy does is push prices up, it's not a "bailout" or "help" to first time buyers unless you have a degree in economics from the Express.


No one bailed me out. Even though Nigel Lawson & Normal Lamount f**ked the economy for us.

So I'm currently sitting with a mortgage that will be paid off when I'm 75!

And what am I doing with regard to sailing? I've invested quite a bit of time and money in bringing a great little boat over that 'the kids' should all be sailing in 20 years time ;-). Coz it's hands down the funnest thing everrrrr...

Obviously I'm generalising here.  The value of your investment may go down as well as really down.  Not everyone got lucky in the housing market LOL 
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

 There aren't many 25-35 year olds who can afford 4-6 holidays per year  Smile

i knew plenty who went snowboarding 4 times a year, kitesurfing twice a year etc  - but then the equipment is seriously much cheaper, lower maintenance and the craic worth the hassle of staying in rented.  I bought my first flat at 22 in North London on a 105% mortgage....  we all take our choices.

It was often those able to take unpaid leave, or in the armed forces or teachers who seem to get quite a bit of time off compared to the commercial world of 20 days including an obligatory 4 for christmas. And a request for a sabbatical or unpaid leave was basically queue jumping to statutory redundancy during the recessions of the last 10 years. 

My experience is the same actually.  Going snowboarding or kitesurfing though - £500 for a week?  Doing a sailing event.. probably nearer £1k.  Maybe I'm underestimating though the snowboarding costs though!


Edited by bustinben - 28 Jan 15 at 8:51pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by Rat Man

we'll all be working until 70


Yeah right. How many people make it to even 65 now without being early retired or made redundant with no prospect of another job at anywhere that pays any better than B&Q?
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 15 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by bustinben

 There aren't many 25-35 year olds who can afford 4-6 holidays per year  Smile

i knew plenty who went snowboarding 4 times a year, kitesurfing twice a year etc  - but then the equipment is seriously much cheaper, lower maintenance and the craic worth the hassle of staying in rented.  I bought my first flat at 22 in North London on a 105% mortgage....  we all take our choices.

It was often those able to take unpaid leave, or in the armed forces or teachers who seem to get quite a bit of time off compared to the commercial world of 20 days including an obligatory 4 for christmas. And a request for a sabbatical or unpaid leave was basically queue jumping to statutory redundancy during the recessions of the last 10 years. 

My experience is the same actually.  Going snowboarding or kitesurfing though - £500 for a week?  Doing a sailing event.. probably nearer £1k.  Maybe I'm underestimating though the snowboarding costs though!

Hang on, snowboarding or skiing £500, I wish!  Flights plus car hire or drive plus tunnel say £200 - £400, ski hire Say £ 100, ski pass £ 200, Accomodation? Eating on Mountain? Après Ski? Evening meal?

Sharing a house at a championships with my mates, couple of meals out, considerably less, probably more like £500 a head.

I do accept the time argument, though I gave up a perfectly good career in the city 30 years ago to go to the J24 nationals ... I don't regret where this decision has led
Happily living in the past
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