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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dinghy popularity
    Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:04am
No jimbo that's not what I'm saying at all, the reason you can get anything round a course is because like just about everyone else here you've sailed since childhood, I'm saying that in order to attract the adult demographic that I generally market to there needs to be access to the cookie jar you''re tempting them with.

The progress you are making now in windsurfing only came about because the high end stuff got easier to sail than it was, trust me, in the early nineties the high end sutff was every bit as tricky to use as high end dinghy stuff is now, we spotted it, too late but we did at least change, our issue other more attractive sports to our demographic came along.

The ace in the hole dinghy sailing has, is the club structure, but in order for it to function as we read here time and again, is new members, but the needs and requirements of modern day newcomer, newcomers that is that haven't come through the child of previous sailor and the oppie squad route, is instant gratification, without it they do something else, that instant gratification means like it or not if they see flying things on sticks going faster than everyone else, that's what they might want...
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:16am
Chess on the water, that is how I want my sailing.

Are dinghies more like track day cars than bikes? You can take your slightly souped up "everyday" car to the track - which I guess is taking the 2000 along and flying the kite, or you can go and buy a Kourneggggggggsegg. If you do the latter with no experience, chances are you'll drive it into the tyre wall on the first corner. This is more Musto Skiff-like.

Does this mean no one, not even the Stig, should be allowed to drive anything faster than an Astra, because he crashed a Koureggggggseggg once?

And woe betide anyone who wants to drive an F1 car - no way you can jump in one and go, so it should be banned, and not even aspired to? What we need is a car with F1 speed, Astra price and the ease of handling (even in corners) of a Clio.
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Old Timer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:16am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Old Timer

Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Old Timer


Why on earth do you think that all areas of the sport should be accessable to a novice?


Why shouldn't they, give me the name of another sport that makes inaccessibility a feature?

Pro Golfers use the same stuff as Amateurs, Pro Cyclists etc etc. It is precisely because of the inaccessibility factor that is driving the sport to the margins of coffin polishing.

Kitesurfing is a pretty high on the list of 'dare devil' activity yet every weekend hundreds are being taught and they use the gear they are taught on.

Pretty much every sport has different equipment for experts and novices.

You would not put someone who has never cocked their leg over a bike on a downhill MTB and push them off an alp ... or put them on a fixed wheel track bike and send them round a velodrome ... they would fall off.

Same with golf, the clubs used by a pro have such a small sweet spot and novice couldn't use them.
 
I'm pretty sure from personal experience that when it comes to many popular bikes you are wrong and Grumpf is correct
 
If you take someone - whether they are Joe or Joanna Average off the street or a weekend club warrior - and ...

In these example these people have prior experience ....they can ride a bike. That breaks the analogy.

You would not put someone who had NEVER cycled on a fixed wheel track bike to learn, there are far more suitable bikes that would give a faster and more enjoyable learning experience.

Who is Grumpf ??

Anyway ... I fear we are losing track to what we are discussing here, I believe iGRF's issue is he believes that there is no equipment suitable for a novice adult, clearly he is incorrect there is are a huge array of options.


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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:18am
Grumph is grf/igrf, aka Graham.

Who is Old Timer?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:20am
Originally posted by Rupert

Chess on the water, that is how I want my sailing.

Are dinghies more like track day cars than bikes? You can take your slightly souped up "everyday" car to the track - which I guess is taking the 2000 along and flying the kite, or you can go and buy a Kourneggggggggsegg. If you do the latter with no experience, chances are you'll drive it into the tyre wall on the first corner. This is more Musto Skiff-like.

Does this mean no one, not even the Stig, should be allowed to drive anything faster than an Astra, because he crashed a Koureggggggseggg once?

And woe betide anyone who wants to drive an F1 car - no way you can jump in one and go, so it should be banned, and not even aspired to? What we need is a car with F1 speed, Astra price and the ease of handling (even in corners) of a Clio.

I think Motor Sport is a far better analogy here than cycling. The complexity and safety issues are more relevant.
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boatbasher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote boatbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:22am
Originally posted by Old Timer


Originally posted by winging it

all the gear, no idea....
I have also seen a kite surfer batter himself against the beach huts. He was "rescued" by some other kitesurfers, who subsequently gave him a bollocking and told him to go home.


I believe that stunt has been pulled off by one of the posters on this forum ....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:23am
The good thing about the slow barges that people learn on is although they are not fast, they kick up a lot of spray and feel fast. That feels good when you are learning. You don't actually need to be going fast.

I read once that although someone sailed an 18' they preferred a laser for sheer fun and exhilaration because they felt fast.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:49am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

The good thing about the slow barges that people learn on is although they are not fast, they kick up a lot of spray and feel fast. That feels good when you are learning. You don't actually need to be going fast.

I read once that although someone sailed an 18' they preferred a laser for sheer fun and exhilaration because they felt fast.
Not (yet) sailed an 18, but having dabbled in cats, the impression of speed can be much less, being a few feet above the water.
Sailing a yacht at 6 knos feels much slower than sailing a laser at 6 knots.
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:58am
Originally posted by iGRF

No jimbo that's not what I'm saying at all, the reason you can get anything round a course is because like just about everyone else here you've sailed since childhood, I'm saying that in order to attract the adult demographic that I generally market to there needs to be access to the cookie jar you''re tempting them with.

I had a windsurf board in the late 90's... it was a Pacific litetec 310, my mates were riding Xantos 278s.... I could get upwind, tack and sometimes get planing by applying basic dinghy skills and little advice on up hauling and rig steering.  They could 'foot steer', sail fast, fall in hard and waterstart back again on the push.  Windsurfing is definitely easier now, I don't think many down mersea beach could gybe back then, not on a shortboards anyway and the only bloke pushing the limits we see today was some big fella from Brightlingsea.  He was quite good granted.  Wink

Here's another analogy....

I learnt to snowboard as an adult- a nervous one: fear of heights, fear of lack of control, fear of breaking something and not being able to earn a living.... it's taken a while, and a couple of gear changes to get a set up I'm comfortable with and can continue to progress with.  It wasn't always easy and I've had a couple of toys out of pram moments where really, is this feckin' expensive holiday in the cold worth it- especially when you're dumping your kids with nannies and nurseries to pick up the local resort sickness bug rather than spending time with them.   But I've always persevered and accepted my limits and pushed forward at a pace I'm comfortable with... which is now pretty limitless on piste, in safe conditions- other than moguls of course, but I really don't know any snowboarder who says they'd pick a black mogulfest over a red groomer at the top of the chairlift.  

Some of us take longer than others, I've done 5 week holidays now (not boarding everyday as there have been childcare & illness issues).  I've also done some practice at a dome and had some informal coaching from the guys there to reach the same standard as a couple of mates did in a week or two.   The trick is to love the journey, which I have in the main.  A winter holiday is now part of our lives, while we can afford one, we'll do one.  But if suddenly I had a desire to switch to being a twin planked ski dork, could I genuinely expect to be buying/renting equivalent grade kit to my board and hitting steeps, carving turns and dropping off the edge of pistes and cutting the corners?  No... I'd be back on my arse on the green run in pain and displeasure and feeling slightly humiliated - which is a stupid thing to admit, but it's truth and I reckon you'd feel the same.  But if I start there, then with the right support I might get up that hill by the end of the week and actually enjoy it, rather than trying to figure it out myself the hard way and potentially with gross incompetence adding to what would otherwise be an acceptable level of risk.  

So the point is if you'd come sail inland, at a proper club, with some structure and training for adults from someone like Winging It... well, she'd have got you off the green run quicker, and you could have come play properly with the rest of us big kids on the blues, reds and occasional black/offpiste and not look such a fool.  Instead you've spent what 8 years trying to metaphorically gun a black on an alpine speed board.... and the irony of it, no one thinks alpine boards are cool anyway.  They're just fast, niche and for people in onesies smoking Gauloise.  


Edited by yellowwelly - 27 Jun 13 at 10:03am
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winging it View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 10:23am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by winging it

THEY DON'T WANT THAT SORT OF THING!!!  Please, speak to some genuine newcomers, they do not want the thrill factor, they want a boat they can sail and enjoy while they improve.  They do not want to run before they can walk because they know they will fall flat on their faces if they do.  You are out of touch with the grass roots, thinking everyone wants to go fast and race.  There an awful lot of sailors who don't want to do that, and who are quite happy cruising sedately round a pond.


Well whoever those newcomers are wingers, they aint sticking are they? We're not exactly swilling with clubs with their membership fit to burst, sadly and don't take this the wrong way, I have nothing but respect for you on a personal sailing level even though we have never met, but you are in all probability (accept I may be wrong) part of the typical RYA splash and dash give it a go pile them in and move them on centres that we are also cursed with in windsurfing.
Mostly they are creches for kids or tryout deals for adults with no great desire to make anyone stick, so you get that kind of participant, next stop kayaks or a boat trip round the pier.

And... late edit, they are adequately catered for already, what's the problem with wanting better?


You are wrong on pretty much every count:

I am Principal of a club, not a commercial centre.

We are full fit to bursting. 

I programme a progressive calendar of courses so that new members can start with L1 in the spring, quickly followed by L2, then they are encouraged to come and sail as often as possible - in club boats - on as many of the supervised sailing sessions as they wish - there are currently two per week where instructors are around to set courses and give coaching.  Plus of course there are plenty of free sailing sessions and some may start tagging on the back end of a race - we do lots of novice race coaching.

The next year they are encouraged to come back and try L3 or an advanced module. Usually seamnship or spinnakers.  We teach both assys and syms, because syms suit the pond better.

Only at that stage do we suggest they start thinking about buying a boat, and at that stage they are well informed enough to be able to make a wise decision.  I have to say none yet have expressed much desire for a foiling moth.
the same, but different...

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