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Individual recall (which wasn't!)
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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 12:27pm
A general isn't compulsory: the rules say "may" not must. There are circumstances where an RC may feel its better to just throw up an individual recall and risk boat(s) getting away with being OCS rather than recall the whole fleet... Consider, for example, if you have two boats out of a hundred three inches over the line and the start is generally fair is it really desirable to start all over again?
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 11:47am
If they could not identify the boat then surely it should have been a general recall?
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 10:44am
Originally posted by JimC

On the original topic: its clear that the RC stuffed up. Whether they did so sufficiently to justify redress is another matter. Its always a problem for a boat that isn't quite over but might have been when another boat is clearly over and doesn't go back.

My instinct would be that you should get redress, but my instinct is rarely a good guide: its amazing how often I see cases that don't match what I should have thought was fair.

 
I'm inclined to agree with that.
The whole point of redress should be to put the competitors back to a position they would have been in had the mistake not happened. How that is achieved can sometimes be a very arbitrary process.
 
On speaking to the RO at the finish, it appears that the erraneous individual recall was a spontaneous reaction when they spotted the L2000 course side of the startline before they had time to realise that the boat was not part of that start.
I was obviously confused and perplexed by the signal given that my position suggested that I was the closest boat in my fleet to the startline, I was convinced I was not OCS but the signal suggested otherwise... it made it difficult to sail on with a clear head.
Ironically after 'retiring' mid race and then resuming, I had a fabulous sail in the best conditions we had this year. It was a shame that my recorded 6th place didn't accurately reflect my performance.
It was an honest mistake by the RO (which he acknowledged), who do it on a voluntary basis. I saw no point in persuing the matter, especially since no mechanism could exist to recover the 5 minutes that I forfeited midrace.
 
Moral of the story; return promptly if you think you're OCS, otherwise race on regardless.
 
 
 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 9:32am
Originally posted by alstorer

(not sure if you'd be scored OCS or DNS?);

Funny you should say that: I was looking at A11 just now, and it seems to me to suggest that if you launch to windward of the starting line and never actually cross the starting line you should be scored OCS, but if you launch to leeward of the starting line and never cross it you should be scored DNS.

On the original topic: its clear that the RC stuffed up. Whether they did so sufficiently to justify redress is another matter. Its always a problem for a boat that isn't quite over but might have been when another boat is clearly over and doesn't go back.

My instinct would be that you should get redress, but my instinct is rarely a good guide: its amazing how often I see cases that don't match what I should have thought was fair.



Edited by JimC - 05 Sep 12 at 9:38am
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 9:05am
it's difficult to see how it could apply to "normal" (P flag) or I flag (30.1, so-called "round the ends rule) starts. In a Z or Black flag start, you've still not started correctly if you're OCS but outside the triangle (not sure if you'd be scored OCS or DNS?); under P or I regardless of where you are you either have to duck or round the ends, making sure your whole boat and crew pass to the non-course side of the line (a boat at the b14 euros messed this one up- which was a pity, as they crossed the finish line a long, long way ahead of the eventual 1st place!)
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Al
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Posts: 857 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 8:52am
Originally posted by alstorer

Originally posted by Brass



I don't see how the OCS boat being in the triangle is relevant

The "triangle" is only relevant for Z flag (30.2) or Black flag (30.3) starts isn't it?


I was trying to see if the OCS was actually correct and see if you could of weaseled your way out I thought the triangle applied to all starts.
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Brass


I don't see how the OCS boat being in the triangle is relevant
The "triangle" is only relevant for Z flag (30.2) or Black flag (30.3) starts isn't it?
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 12 at 8:06am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Andymac

If I had heeded the signal and returned from my 'perfect' start what redress would I have expected (or received) if any

I was about to say none, then I read it again... Are you saying that the sound signal and flag, at your start, was actually for a boat that was OCS on a previous start, two minutes before? Bearing in mind that 29.1 says the flag and signal shall be displayed promptly after the start there's no way that was a valid action. Whether it justifies redress is another matter.

On the other hand you never know if there's a boat that is PMS halfway up the beat or something, so I suppose it could be argued you should know whether you are OCS or not, and if you haven't got courage of your convictions its your fault.

I'm intrigued to see what Brass and Gordon make of this one!
 
Yes Jim, you got that right. The start for the Laser 2000 was 2 minutes previously and my opinion is that the flag and signal should not have been made on our start. Had I interpreted it as myself over the line (since it couldn't have been anyone else in my fleet) and 'returned' then subsequently learnt the truth, then I'd certainly have asked for redress, as you say whether I'd have received it would have been another matter.
 
I also agree that I should have sailed the race regardless and had the courage of my conviction.
 
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 10:24pm
Rule 29.1 requires the Individual Recall signal to come down 'no later than four minutes after the starting signal (that is the starting signal for the OCS boat) or one minute before any later starting signal, whichever is the earlier'.

So all recall signals from previous divisions should be done finish by your one-minute signal.

I don't see how the OCS boat being in the triangle is relevant


Edited by Brass - 04 Sep 12 at 10:27pm
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AlexM View Drop Down
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Posts: 857 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 12 at 7:27pm
Was the 2000 in the triangle ?
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