Handicap racing now pointless?

   Is it now completely pointless handicap racing? Is it not a lottery of course and wind strength? The results of the bloody Mary being a perfect example. Some boats that do well in all conditions labeled bandits takes away any glory sailing them. Others that only do well in certain winds have frustrating times in all others while rarely winning. Not only that the PY has been completely warped by old boats allowing development and handicaps not moving in line. 

And with so many classes and not many fleets, could it be argued that sailing has killed itself? Frustration will lead people to quit and effectively ruin the sport? 

I'm being very cynical (even for me!) and but I just wondered other people's views. 

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richcritch Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 16 Sep 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 22	Post Options Post Reply Quote richcritch Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Handicap racing now pointless? Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 1:05pm
	Is it now completely pointless handicap racing? Is it not a lottery of course and wind strength? The results of the bloody Mary being a perfect example. Some boats that do well in all conditions labeled bandits takes away any glory sailing them. Others that only do well in certain winds have frustrating times in all others while rarely winning. Not only that the PY has been completely warped by old boats allowing development and handicaps not moving in line. And with so many classes and not many fleets, could it be argued that sailing has killed itself? Frustration will lead people to quit and effectively ruin the sport? I'm being very cynical (even for me!) and but I just wondered other people's views.

rogue Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 978	Post Options Post Reply Quote rogue Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 1:47pm
	if you sail for the love of sailing, then really you just accept handicap racing as nice way to do the same thing with friends and meet new people. If you get it right, you do this in a boat you love and one than suits your current lifestyle. If you sail just to be the first around the course, then go buy a Laser and go on a diet; or better still, go cycling in a velodrome- it's ideal if all you want is to beat someone around a track without the vagaries of a less than square beat or a dodgy shift.

Neptune Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jun 09 Location: Berkshire United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314	Post Options Post Reply Quote Neptune Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 2:24pm
	I think handicap racing is more important than ever, provided you go sailing for fun....
	Musto Skiff and Solo sailor

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 2:26pm
	The PY system will never produce fair results at one race, this is not it's purpose. No handicap system, no matter how much data is crunched, will produce fair results on one race. The example of the moths being impossible to handicap at one race is just an extreme one.....the handicapping of the Laser V's any other boat is just as impossible at one race. A handicap system (not necessarily the current one) can only work at a large series raced over a period of time. (typical club scenario) Whether the sailjuice series produces an overall fair result is another debate. Personaly I don't think the series is long enough to do that. Just do the one off handicap events for fun. Edited by GK.LaserII - 08 Jan 12 at 2:41pm

alstorer Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899	Post Options Post Reply Quote alstorer Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 2:45pm
	If you don't like PY racing, then find a club/class combination that suits you and fleet race. In most of the country, there's a fair bit of choice. Meanwhile those of us that tolerate the vagaries of the PY system will go PY racing. Unless you've got a better plan, genius?
	-_ Al

Rockhopper Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 16 Nov 07 Location: Eastry Online Status: Offline Posts: 642	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rockhopper Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 2:52pm
	I always think the grin factor of a good race is way better than the win factor i use to try and win at all costs now days i just sail for the sheer fun of it as for handicap racing why worry about it after all if its that important go get one these so called bandits and join the rest of them guys As for the moths handicap being a bit funny who cares really those guys who sail them deserve a medal for sailing them as i think most of us wish we could sail them like them or in my case i wish i could be light enough to even think about it
	Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo

maxibuddah Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760	Post Options Post Reply Quote maxibuddah Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 6:06pm
	the only way to enjoy handicap racing is to ignore the PY system and just sail for the fun of it as said before. If however you want py racing to be taken seriously and be relativity fair is to also introduced wind rated py's. Never be completely fair but would be better than what currently exists. The only arguments then would be over what the wind strength was at a given point on the course. Not perfect as i said but it would be better than moths our contenders thrashing everyone when its windy but having no chance when the wind drops
	Everything I say is my opinion, honest

Hughph Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 13 Oct 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 324	Post Options Post Reply Quote Hughph Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 7:30pm
	It's not all about winning... (I'm sure many years ago in a topper or oppy many of you have been told!)

RS400atC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011	Post Options Post Reply Quote RS400atC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 7:35pm
	PY racing is fine, with comparable boats. Racing RS400's against Laser 4000's, it gives us a result we can live with averaged over a series and a few different courses. You still have to use tactics and cover boats sometimes. Racing against boats that are so disparate that they are rarely on the same leg of the course is always going to be a bit random, but the battles within the fleet remain just as valid. Foiling boats are a bit like cats, perhaps one day there will be enough foilers for them to race separately? But a few all-in races now and then is great. You'd need a lot of space to bring cats back into the equation though. Meanwhile, hope everyone enjoyed the BM, it's just great to get so many boats out there and be able to see different boats in action.

doeywizard Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 16 Jun 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 150	Post Options Post Reply Quote doeywizard Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 7:46pm
	I think that in some ways PY racing pushes sailors more. For example to day I took great delight in keeping up with the radial up wind and overtaking streakers and a supernova up wind in a 4.7, on the run I new I would fall behind but I pushed me to make everything go well up wind as I knew that down wind I was at a disadvantage, In fleet racing I have a bad beat I just think that I will make it up on the run. It makes you open your eyes to where you can sail quickly. I do see the other side of you cant mach your speed to another boat so in that way fleet racing is good, however if you are beating faster boats on the water then you know you are doing something well.