50S

   There's an article on another sailing website front page essentially making the argument that the 505 has been overdeveloped and is as a result too expensive.  (Probably no change out of 30k)...

Everyone wants to sail a 505... why wouldn't you, they're beautiful things....

The argument being made is that if the class allowed a 50S and could somehow shave 10k off the price it'd be a popular move.  The 50S would have for example a limited number of fittings, the old spinnaker and maybe one design foils....  These boats could race at 505 events for different prizes. After all it wouldn't be significantly slower than a fully fettled 505.

1. Would this actually shave 10k off the price?

2. Is it a good idea?

3. in the process of simplifying the boat would you ruin all that's good about it?

Edited by Paul Smalley - 07 Mar 22 at 10:51pm

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Paul Smalley Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 23 Jul 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3	Topic: 50S Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 10:48pm
	There's an article on another sailing website front page essentially making the argument that the 505 has been overdeveloped and is as a result too expensive. (Probably no change out of 30k)... Everyone wants to sail a 505... why wouldn't you, they're beautiful things.... The argument being made is that if the class allowed a 50S and could somehow shave 10k off the price it'd be a popular move. The 50S would have for example a limited number of fittings, the old spinnaker and maybe one design foils.... These boats could race at 505 events for different prizes. After all it wouldn't be significantly slower than a fully fettled 505. 1. Would this actually shave 10k off the price? 2. Is it a good idea? 3. in the process of simplifying the boat would you ruin all that's good about it? Edited by Paul Smalley - 07 Mar 22 at 10:51pm
	-Paul

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Posted: 08 Mar 22 at 7:49am
	See also: Alto If you’re alternative to a 505 is a 5.5m, or a J70 or a Farr 40 then cost isn’t an issue and this won’t help you. If you’re alternative is an RS400 then it will. The value of a race boat lies at least as much, and probably considerably more, in the bits the builder isn’t responsible for - the class association, the race calendar, your local club fleets etc. Not many people would spend £30k on a 505 if there was no racing to be had, but there is and it’s high calibre in glam locations. Consequently it sells. Similarly not many will spend £20k on a low spec 505 or Alto if there is no racing to be had - and there isn’t which is why they don’t exist. Edited by A2Z - 08 Mar 22 at 8:01am

eric_c Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Jan 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 382	Posted: 08 Mar 22 at 9:14am
	You can easily shave more than £10k off the price, just buy a good used one. The problem seems to be people want brand new boats then say it costs too much... Also a 505 has a fairly long competitve life, the cost of travel etc campaigning one probably puts the cost of the boat in the shade.

423zero Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3420	Posted: 08 Mar 22 at 10:03am
	I have always attached 505 to sailors who are very serious, almost professionall, do the existing 505 sailors want this?
	Robert

iGRF Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499	Posted: 08 Mar 22 at 10:17am
	The Alto another victim of PYAG savagery during the period within which it could have become established, at one point they had it faster than the 505 even though it had less canvass a self tacking jib and it's assym kite no match for that monster kite the 5 oh uses on the run. The world missed a great boat in the Alto, I took complete beginners to the front of the fleet in no time, it's easy to sail comparitively lighter has some great features to be sailed tactically I had a great time in it until death and illness robbed me of crews to the point I was beginning to think I was a jonah to crew for and sold it, my one enduring regret. The Alto at full tilt in our ship race, no greater sailing joy.
	Snow Equipment Deals New Core Kite website

getafix Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143	Posted: 08 Mar 22 at 2:39pm
	The 505 is a lovely boat and comparative to many others of similar development (Moth, i14, MR) you get what you pay for. Cost was always leveled at the FD as it's nemesis but as with that (very lovely boat) I would say the following has as much of a bearing as anything: i) as they have got faster and faster, you need a bigger and longer course area to get the best of them which rules out a lot of venues where they would have been competitive in the past ii) you need time and skill, or lots and lots of time to practice, to get the best out of them iii) the purchase price is high but so is the gear price, you need good sails etc so the ££££ ramp up its not 'just' the initial buy-in costs iv) the class has always attracted very good sailors which means they win a lot of handicap events which means the PY is well out of reach for many average or time-poor club sailors for the reasons of i, ii and iii above
	Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one

Paul Smalley Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 23 Jul 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3	Posted: 09 Mar 22 at 10:06am
	I think the point is that the front of the fleet these days is spending a lot of money on upgrades even if, in rare cases, their hulls are older. An Alto just isn't a 505 whatever it was marketed as. But a 505, without some of the more expensive upgrades racing against other 505's similarly hobbled isn't a bad idea. I suspect most people don't campaign boats, they just turn up at a few events when personal circumstances allow and like to think that if they sailed better and practiced more and had more talent then they had a fair chance of winning. Lots of exotic development classes could benefit from restricted development prizes, allowing people with older boats to maybe simplify them slightly and then race against others without canting foils or one string raking rigs. Just a thought. Might be more popular than just racing in a 'classic' fleet at the same event.
	-Paul

davidyacht Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345	Posted: 09 Mar 22 at 11:46am
	In one of the classes I sail it has proven divisive to separate fleets into modern and classic, the result is have a two tier class both on and off the water. That is not to say that both fleets don't have good racing, or good socials, but the chat in the bar is always about the fleet you were racing in. A better approach is to have old boat prizes within the larger fleet. This means that the fleet can race together, and there is considerable achievement when an older boat breaks through into the higher echelons of the Grand Prix fleet, it also allows for a ladder for progression.
	Happily living in the past

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Posted: 09 Mar 22 at 1:34pm
	One thing that does have merit is the complaint about high aspect ratio foils. They cost a lot for a small, but important, gain and are impractical for many locations.

Oatsandbeans Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 19 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 382	Posted: 09 Mar 22 at 2:40pm
	505s have been here before. In the early 80s the Americans went really high tech ( for the time!), building 505s in Nomex honeycomb/ epoxy and the costs went through the roof. It was the time of Ethan Bixby, Cam Lewis , Steve Benjamin IIRC. The class the went away from these exotics to control costs and get a god balance of cost / longevity, whcih is where they are now.