New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: unusual boat contact
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

unusual boat contact
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: unusual boat contact
    Posted: 15 Oct 14 at 11:36am
You old cynic, Mags!
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
MerlinMags View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 04
Location: UK, Guildford
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 588 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MerlinMags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 14 at 11:21am
How many of these swept-back-purely-for-the-weed-guvnor rudder blades are being given a hefty wiggle now and again to provide propulsion?
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 14 at 12:49am
Originally posted by Rupert

I have commented on raised Laser rudders in the past, when I've been sailing a class where it isn't allowed, too. Now I'm either sailing a Lightning, where you can ...
So, if you hit a raised Laser rudder, you can counter protest and get them thrown out, but if you hit a raised Lightning rudder, you are in the wrong? 

Does the word "normal" refer to the rudder having been like that for a while, or would "normal" be the class rules?

For me, it would have to be the former, surely, so you'd still be out, even if you also sucessfully protested the Laser.

normal:  ordinary, usual, conforming to type.

IMHO, if you have a rudderblade that is capable of adjustment, so as to move the CLR, or reduce wetted surface area, or for whatever reason, the position that gives the best advantage is normal:  it's normal to adjust your boat to best advantage.

EXCEPT when the position you adjust to breaks class or other rules, then it's not normal.

Originally posted by porkyman


The scenario 
On a dead run in light wind, i was gaining ground on a boat in front, both on starboard tack, and ended up very close to his transom, whilst I decided which side to pass him. At this point I realised his rudder was not fully down, and was therefore extending his boat length by about a foot !! I didnt touch his `extended rudder`, but it must have been very close. 

The question: 
If I had touched his rudder, would I have been in the wrong ?, as his rudder was not in the `normal` sailing position. 

No class rule prohibited the other boat from adjusting her rudderblade (Lightening)

The rudder blade was in a normal position.

You (B) became overlapped, either to windward or to leeward, when your bow or prodder crossed the line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat's (A) rudderblade (Definition:  Clear Astern and Clear Ahead:  Overlap).

If B were to leeward of A's rudderblade, B was overlapped to leeward, was right of way boat (rule 11), and was obliged to give A room to keep clear initially (rule 15).

If B touched A's rudderblade, then A would have failed to keep clear and broken rule 11, but B, at that very close distance, would almost certainly not have given A room to keep clear and have broken rule 15, so A would be exonerated for breaking rule 11 (rule 64.1( a )) and on valid protest B would be penalised.

There was contact, so rule 14 applies.
  • B could readily have borne away to leeward and avoided contact, so B failed to avoid contact when it was reasonably possible to do so, and B broke rule 14.
  • Rudder movement by A would probably have caused contact:  there was nothing A could practicably have done to avoid contact once B got in there.  A did not break rule 14.
If there was no damage or injury, B, a right of way boat is exonerated for breaking rule 14 (rule 14( b )).  Even if it had been reasonably possible for A to avoid contact, if there was no damage or injury, A, a boat entitled to room in accordance with rule 15 would also be exonerated for breaking rule 14.

If B were to windward of A's rudderblade, B was overlapped to windward and required to keep clear (rule 11).  Because B changed from keep clear (astern, under rule 12) to keep clear (windward under rule 11), A did not acquire right of way, and A had no obligation under rule 15 

If B touched A's rudderblade, then B would have failed to keep clear and broken rule 11.  On valid protest B would be penalised.

There was contact, so rule 14 applies.
  • B could readily have changed course to windward and avoided contact, so B failed to avoid contact when it was reasonably possible to do so, and B broke rule 14.
  • Rudder movement by A would probably have caused contact:  there was nothing A could practicably have done to avoid contact once B got in there.  A did not break rule 14.
B was neither a right of way boat nor entitled to room so cannot be exonerated under rule 14( b ).  Even if it had been reasonably possible for A to avoid contact, if there was no damage or injury, A, a right of way boat, would also be exonerated for breaking rule 14.

Class rules prohibit other boat from adjusting rudderblade (Laser)

The rudder blade was NOT in normal position.

You (B) did not become overlapped when your bow or prodder crossed the line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat's (A) rudderblade (Definition:  Clear Astern and Clear Ahead:  Overlap).

B remained Clear Astern and required to keep clear (rule 12).

If B touched A's rudderblade, then B would have failed to keep clear and broken rule 12.

But, A was breaking her Class Rules and accordingly, for what it's worth, breaking rule 3( a ).

There was contact, so rule 14 applies.
  • B could readily have changed course away from whichever side of A's rudderblade she was on and avoided contact, so B failed to avoid contact when it was reasonably possible to do so, and B broke rule 14.
  • Rudder movement by A would probably have caused contact:  there was nothing A could practicably have done to avoid contact once B got in there.  A did not break rule 14.
B was neither a right of way boat nor entitled to room so B cannot be exonerated under rule 14( b ).  Even if it had been reasonably possible for A to avoid contact, if there was no damage or injury, A, a right of way boat would also be exonerated for breaking rule 14.

The question now arises whether, as a consequence of A breaking her Class Rule, A compelled B to break rule 12 or rule 14 and is exonerated under rule 64.1( a )?

The Background to OP scenario indicates that it was commonly known that boats sailed with their rudderblades up.

On the other hand, B could well argue that she relied on A to comply with her class rules (although a protest committee might doubt this, given that it is not usually expected that a boat will have a detailed knowledge of the class rules of a class other than her own).

There might also be issues about:
  • how far up the blade was:  if it was cocked all the way up and out of the water, it would be pretty obvious, while if, as indicated by the OP, it was just swept back underwater at an angle, it would be less obvious;  and
  • how close to A's transom B was when contact occurred:  if she was two feet away and touched the tip of the rudder blade, the protest committee might view it differently from if she was only a couple inches away, when it could certainly be said she broke rule 12, without the rudder having any effect.
I think there are some nice judgments here that could only be made by a protest committee seeking and hearing evidence on the spot.

A protest committee might decide that B is exonerated for not keeping clear, but not exonerated for not avoiding contact.

I tend to think that the better solution is for B not to be exonerated, and both boats penalised.

Originally posted by jeffers

The Laser would be binned on class rule violation. The fact that there was contact would be irrelevent.

As the rudder is out of position (and was likely to have been such time you are obliged to keep clear.

I would argue that if you are that close to a Laser transom that you are in danger of clipping the rudder then you are not keeping clear anyway as even swept back a little it is very close to the boat.... 

See above:  I think contact was relevant.
Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 14 at 11:05pm
Yes that was utterly bizarre though.  Proved by performance that he kept clear!
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 14 at 3:51pm
The Laser would be binned on class rule violation. The fact that there was contact would be irrelevent.

As the rudder is out of position (and was likely to have been such time you are obliged to keep clear.

I would argue that if you are that close to a Laser transom that you are in danger of clipping the rudder then you are not keeping clear anyway as even swept back a little it is very close to the boat.... 

We all remember the BA protest where he got binned for not keeping clear even though there was overhead video evidence that proved the french guy did not deviate and there was no contact.....
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 14 at 3:03pm
I have commented on raised Laser rudders in the past, when I've been sailing a class where it isn't allowed, too. Now I'm either sailing a Lightning, where you can, or a Firefly, where I can fit the old fashioned swept back blade, it would seem a little churlish to complain - I'll leave it to those with fixed blades!

So, if you hit a raised Laser rudder, you can counter protest and get them thrown out, but if you hit a raised Lightning rudder, you are in the wrong? Does the word "normal" refer to the rudder having been like that for a while, or would "normal" be the class rules?

For me, it would have to be the former, surely, so you'd still be out, even if you also sucessfully protested the Laser.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 14 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Neptune

Originally posted by jeffers

Plus there is always the question of class rules so you could counter protest as some classes mandate that the rudder must be fully down at all times (and we all know you cannot vary a class rule using an SI unless you have the written agreement of the class).

is that true?  How many laser sailors around the country/ world are racing in laser fleets with a replica sail

Yes it is true RRS87.

The replica sail issue can be got around though (as can the rudder rule using the same method).

It does need to ne published in a suitable manner though.


Edited by jeffers - 14 Oct 14 at 2:30pm
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Neptune View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 08 Jun 09
Location: Berkshire United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 14 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Plus there is always the question of class rules so you could counter protest as some classes mandate that the rudder must be fully down at all times (and we all know you cannot vary a class rule using an SI unless you have the written agreement of the class).

is that true?  How many laser sailors around the country/ world are racing in laser fleets with a replica sail
Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 14 at 12:35pm
Plus there is always the question of class rules so you could counter protest as some classes mandate that the rudder must be fully down at all times (and we all know you cannot vary a class rule using an SI unless you have the written agreement of the class).
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 14 at 9:13pm
My view, yes you'd be in the wrong. But very unlucky.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy